Kosovo’s Independence Will Stir Up Trouble. Who Will Benefit?

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Perhaps the most striking things about the impending declaration of independence about Kosovo is that is happening at all. Why should the Kosovo Albanians be striving for independence from Belgrade now, since there has been peace in the province for eight years (interrupted only in 2004, when a mob of Albanians killed 25 Serbs) and since the regime in Serbia, of which the Kosovo Albanians are citizens, has been democratic and pro-European since 2000?
 
Why, indeed, did the Kosovo Albanians spend the whole of the first part of the 1990s in peace, when the rest of Yugoslavia was in flames? If their desire for independence had really been so intense as their national propaganda claims, then surely the time to act would have been when the Yugoslav federation was collapsing in 1992-1992, or during the Bosnian civil war of 1992-1995.
 
For that matter, why did the Albanians inside Serbia, who are in the majority in the area around the Southern towns of Presevo and Bujanovac, start their attacks there in 2001, a year after the fall of Slobodan Milošević’s fall from power, whereas they had been left in peace during the civil war between Serbs and Albanians in neighbouring Kosovo in 1998-1999?
 
None of this seems to make any sense.
 
One thing is certain: the Kosovo Albanians would not have threatened to declare independence if they were not certain that they would receive diplomatic recognition from the United States and most European states. The Kosovo leadership (which means the leadership of the Kosovo Liberation Army, the guerrilla force whose head, Hashim Thaci, is now the “Prime Minister” of Kosovo) has very close ties to the West. Thaci famously kissed Madeleine Albright during the Kosovo war of 1999 and also visited Tony Blair at Number 10; one of his predecessors as Prime Minister, Ramush Haradinaj, who has since been indicted by The Hague for war crimes, is known as a major CIA asset.
 
No doubt the Kosovo Albanians have some claim to independence, although it is notable how seldom they refer to the persecution of which they were supposedly the victims in 1999 under Milošević. This is no doubt because everyone knows that those claims of genocide bore as much relation to reality as did the claim made in 2002-2003 that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Indeed, the charge of genocide turned out to be so unsustainable that it was never even included in the indictment against Milošević.
 
The loss of Kosovo by Serbia would be a terrible blow to the values of Christian civilisation, since that region is itself a symbol of the victory over the European spirit over the superior military force of Islam, having been the scene of Serbia’ historic battle against the Turks in 1389. The province contains some of the jewels of European architecture, the monasteries of Peć, Dečani and Gračanica. But the truth is that the new battle of Kosovo was lost a long time ago, when the Serbs, like most Europeans, stopped having babies while the Albanians, like many other Muslim peoples, continued having them – and at a vast rate. The demographic battle having been lost, there is very little the government in Belgrade can do now to halt the inevitable.
 
Worse, perhaps, is the effect which the independence of this small province will have on the region and the wider world. The anger of Bosnian Serbs is inflamed by the West’s double-standards. While it demands autonomy and now secession for the Kosovo Albanians, it is pushing ever greater centralisation and curtailment of autonomy in neighbouring Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Serbs there have been told they must never hold a referendum on independence from Bosnia, while the EU-back “High Representative” is determined to abrogate what remains of the autonomy of Republika Srpska. Independence for Kosovo will, in all likelihood, lead to the fragmentation of the artificial and largely bogus state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
 
But the double-standards are not confined to the Balkans. The narrative in Cyprus is almost identical to that in Kosovo: a Muslim population there, the Turks, was the subject of persecution by its Orthodox co-nationals, the Greeks, until they were protected by military intervention according to international law: Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974 and invoked the terms of the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee (between Britain, Turkey and Greece) which guaranteed the constitution of Cyprus. Yet Northern Cyprus (the Turkish part) has been the victim of an embargo and international isolation ever since then, an international pariah while Kosovo’s leaders are the toast of the world’s chancelleries.
 
The same goes for Transnistria. Transnistria is a small sliver of land along the left bank of the Dniestr river, North-West of Odessa. When the Romanian province of Bessarabia was illegally annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940, according to the terms of the secret protocol of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Transnistria became part of the Soviet Socialist Republic of Moldova. It had never before in history been governed from the Moldovan capital, Chişinău, and most of its inhabitants speak Russian. The Soviet Union started to collapse in 1990 precisely when Moscow admitted, after years of denial, the existence of the secret protocol to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and this led to the secession of the Baltic states and, eventually, the dissolution of the USSR itself. Transnistria naturally said that its incorporation into Moldova was as illegal as Moldova’s incorporation into the Soviet Union and demanded independence. Although it has indeed been de facto independent since 1992, the West has consistently told it that it will not allow it to secede from Moldova. Ditto for Nagorno-Karabakh (formally part of Azerbaijan, populated now exclusively by Armenians), South Ossetia (part of Georgia but culturally linked to North Ossetia, which is inside Russia) and Abkazia (also part of Georgia but de facto independent since 1992).
 
Encouraging independence for Kosovo will only re-ignite the conflict which has been basically frozen there since 1999, as well as the similarly frozen conflicts in the Balkans, in Moldova and the Caucasus. What is the point of this when the other option is to let sleeping dogs lie? Does someone have an interest in causing trouble?
 
The only common denominator in all these various conflicts, indeed, is attitudes to Russia. Russia supports Serbia on Kosovo and Bosnia; it is broadly supportive of Transnistria and the other non-recognised states on the territory of the former Soviet Union (although it has done little concrete to help them). Any trouble in these area is trouble for Moscow in its own backyard, which President Putin told me in September is the last thing he wants. Maybe that is why the West is determined to provoke it.



Jinnah

Interfaith marriage to Jinnah personally meant to be able to wed a Zoroastrian girl. Yet, when his own daughter wished to marry a Christian, Jinnah was vehemently against it, asking her to marry a muslim man.

Hence, in my opinion, Jinnahs goal was to increase/spread the muslim population territory through these marriages. This is happening in Europe also. (They are getting polygamy laws)

In my opinion, Jinnahs speech was simply a speech meant for westerners, based on his previous and future actions, it seems to me that he was just singing the siren song that most muslim leaders sing when they desire the support of the west.

And on this note, I am also reminded of Varus, who like the leaders of our Europe today, have placed their trust on a few fellow Arminiuses who are leading our nations deeper and deeper into the darkness of this proverbial Teutonburg Forest.

The day will come, if our leaders keep on following, when the knives of Armenius and their friends will be at their throats , and that day will not be one for us to celebrate.

I think I have read enough on Jinnah. I shall not waste any more of my time. His plan was a plan based on an older Muslim league plan...

Surely, he was not going to come out in the open and tell the world that he, Jinnah wanted to bring back the glory of the old muslim empire. He needed Western help to get what he wanted, and like many today who come to the west for help, Jinnah was no different in this respect. take care Traveller. Believe what you will, but I will not.

@ Steiner

You accuse Jinnah of not working on Indian general legislation, he did that during 37 years in the Indian parliament. The laws he introduced and passed:
Allowing and guaranteeing interfaith marriage, which was forbidden before in India. He did that against the opposition of the muslims.
Forbidding marriage below the age of 16.
Obligation of having government purchase contracts in rupees instead of pound sterling, which favored the british contractors.
He reprimanded the House and the british Lords for attacking Ghandi verbally in the House after Ghandi started the problems in Natal.
He opposed sending Indian soldiers to war for the British empire, a proposal from Ghandi to the House. He was voted down.

@ Steiner

And when you read all that, buy and read the book by Jaswant Singh, a 69 year old BJP leader and ex-foreign minister of India, "a call to honour, in service of emergent India", in which the nationalist hindu author writes that Jinnah was forced into creating Pakistan by the repeated betrayals of Congress and Nehru.
This should do it by now or do you know better again?

@ Steiner

You continue to ignore the context of those days. Anyway Jinnah doesn't need me to defend him, he was a giant and died too soon for Pakistan to be molded in a secular state. If you really want to learn about Jinnah you can start by:

1)Wikipedia: Muhammad Ali Jinnah
2)Google: Cowasjee about Jinnah
3)http://pakistaniat.com , a blog, but take it today, the pakistani muslims talk about the christians today the 25th of december 2007
4)www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20011230.html

This will give you certainly a couple of days reading.
As appetizer I give you a small passage of the inaugural speech of Jinnah in the Pakistan assembly at the declaration of independence on August 11, 1947:

"You are free, free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed, that has nothing to do with the business of state,..."
and it goes further with:
"we are starting in the days when there is no discrimination, no distinction between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state."

Like you see a real fundamentalist.

So open your eyes and stop wanting to bend history to your wishes.
BTW Cowasjee is a parsee and is not sympathetic to muslims, only to straight people.

About a man that polarized the muslim vote and created apartheid

Traveller, before Jinnah came along, the muslim league was only polling about 10 - 15% of the muslim population. The rest of the muslims were voting for members in the Congress.

If Jinnah was secular as you wish me to believe, and to which I totally disagree, Jinnah would have concentrated on Indians in general by urging reforms that would have put religion secondary to human rights. After all, these were all Indians.

He would have worked to establish a system of laws which protect the individual and give the individual distinct rights,and duties much like the American system.

He did not do this in India, nor in Pakistan. He did the very opposite. He polarized the Muslim vote..he distinctly called for Muslim rights. He also used scare tactics to get the Muslims to fear for their lives and to join his union. Hence, after a few years, 80 - 90% of the Muslim population was voting for the Muslim league.

Consequently, once a Muslim League is established, then the leaders of this league will do everything possible to keep their voters.... by emphasizing the differences through fear and what not. They will in fact be in the very business of creating apartheid in order to have more power. This is what Jinnah did, at the expense of human rights and Indians in general.

Hence this has a lot to do with Kosovo and Europe in general. In my opinion, in order to keep human rights at the forefront, and in order to keep a peaceful population we cannot allow these organizations to exist. They must be stamped out, not supported. For if they are supported, then the leaders in these organisations will do everything possible to make themselves more relevant by creating more schism, and attracting more people to their sides, hence being able to ask for more funding which will be used to create more apartheid which will be used to get more funding and ultimately more power.

The Indian Congress acted very naively. We in Europe must learn from their mistakes, and ask our governments to get rid of these organizations that will only continue to highlight the differences...

Hence, our governments should begin at once to shut down all these muslim organizations, and muslim congresses around Europe immediately. The natural rights of man must come first. Religion must not be allowed to prosper politically.

Allowing muslim congresses and muslim organizations and ultimately muslim parties and muslim states is detrimental to the natural rights of the individual.

As we all know, the Kosovons are Europeans, so why do they deserve special treatment? because they are muslims?

Had they not been Muslims they would have easily mixed with the rest of the Serbs a long time ago. So apartheid is a problem that is brought upon us by the islamic ideology, and we must challenge it...before we go the way of India..

@ Steiner

Since you touched the topic of what Pakistan did to it's minorities and you ignore totally what I said before, I will answer this:
Pakistan did not do anything to it's minorities except in a few hundred gangster cases which also happened hundred fold more to it's own population by the same gangsters. The muslim and hindu exodus is entirely due to the hindu started wholesale slaughter of muslims and reciprocated by the muslims with the sole aim of kicking out the muslims of independent India.
Those muslims were culturally Indians and originated in India.
Blaming Jinnah for this is intellectually dishonest.
In Simla Gandhi could have interfered and accepted an honest brokerage of a council with 5 muslims, 5 hindus, 1 sikh, Lord Wavell and Gandhi. This was acceptable to Jinnah and would already put the muslims at a disadvantage. Gandhi refused. Why? Asking for Congress to have their own muslim in this council was asking for trouble and split muslim votes. A Congress muslim would vote for Congress and not for muslims like what happened in Kashmir with Abdullah voting for anything Nehru wanted and this started the civil war.
I don't know where the 26 million hindu Pakistanis come from, they sound to me like the 80 million death hindus. There were about 10 million hindus in Pakistan of which 8 million fled to India. They were not killed, they fled and many of them were robbed, beaten and a serious percentage was killed. The real figures are not known. The fact is that many more muslims were killed over a longer period. Also here the figures are not known.
As far as transferring this analogie to Europe is concerned you can't, the India situation was and is different from Europe. I agree with the fact that Kosovo is Serb and should not be made independent, but that has nothing to do with the India/Pakistan situation.

@ Steiner

Mama mia. Dear Mr. Steiner I advise you strongly to read up on Simla instead of an article of 2 paragraphs.
Nehru wanted in Simla what he did afterwards in Kashmir. He wanted to represent part of the muslims and all the hindus, sikhs etc. etc. That way he split up the muslims and could always have muslims in the council fighting each other. This is exactly what happened in Kashmir and see the result.
Jinnah stood firm on this and declared in the same conference, while the murdering of muslims was going on, don't forget, that he would agree with the composition of a confederation of declared muslim and hindu provinces with their own "plebiscited" constitution and if any province wanted to change camps or it's constitution by majority vote that would be acceptable. Nehru refused point blank, he wanted to oblige Jinnah, given the murderings which were going on to withdraw and decide for Pakistan.
Mr. Steiner we are hogging this posting and we shouldn't monopolize this by our own private discussion.
My e-mail is: mercurytraveller@hotmail.com, you can contact me there if you wish, unless the blogmaster wants us to continue here, that's his decision.

Jinnah has a lot in common with todays Muslims politics

Traveller, Jinnah has changed my view regarding muslims yet again. I used to think that taking away the customs could change their world view. But sadly, Jinnah shows the typical behaviour of your rabid muslim despite him leaving the customs behind. No wonder Pakistan can approach the UN and ask for protection for Islam, without shame of what Islam has done to its minorities.

This fellow, Jinnah, is responsible for the apartheid that resulted in India. His so called secularism and western outlook were only a front to fool the English and the Hindus.

All in all, I would compare him to the muslim leaders today who say one thing in arabic to the masses and tell the foreigners something else. This fellow was a nationalist muslim whose goal was to take India or a larger Pakistan the way of Islam, by using the power of the English to keep the Hindus down.

As regards to making Islam the national religion when close to 26 million of the Pakistanis were Hindus, shows the obvious scathing that this fellow had of religious minorites.

In Kosovo he would aggressively pursue independence of muslims....with future progressive takeover of Serbian lands.

Hence, if the Serbs and the Europeans wish to avoid the ways of India they will not allow independence of Kosovo, and they should pursue an active policy to publicly challenge the ideas of islam altogether and to stop any migration into Kosovo.

I urge those that profess Christianity not to pursue any accomodation for the ideology of Islam, but to challenge it everywhere peacefully with the words of Jesus and to inform and to teach Christians and those who wish to listen, that this scourge must be avoided. There is very little time.

When Jinnah was asked if the Direct Action would be violent or non-violent, Jinnah retorted: "I am not going to discuss ethics."

http://iref.homestead.com/DirectAction.html

At the Simla conference, Jinnah almost got the Hindu majority reduced to a minority in legislature and services.

Still not good enough for him:

http://www.blurtit.com/q101598.html

Jinnah wanted the Indian Congress that represented both Muslims and Hindus to recognize his Muslim League to be the only representative of Muslims in the Government...

Talk about splitting Indian politics. Imagine this scenario in European countries! or the whole of Europe!

@ Steiner

She married Neville Wadia, a parsee born christian. They had a son, Nusli who converted back to parsee. Knowing the parsees, Neville must have had an educational or economical reason to become a christian.
Nusli is a very rich businessman in India today.
Dina, Jinnah's daughter did not see her father after the wedding with Neville, she came only to his grave to pay her respects, but that is totally in line with his political wishes.

@ Steiner

You seem to be bitten by the bug. Good, I will try to answer your questions as they come up.
His daughter did not marry a christian but she married a zoroasthrian.
I will try to remember his name. She stayed close to her father in spirit, it was politically impossible for him to display publicly his agreement. She came regularly to Pakistan after his death to honour him at his grave(mausoleum)
United India was doomed by the actions of Sardar Patel on instigation of Nehru, to slaughter muslims in cahoots with the very strong gangs of criminals in the cities and in rural India.
Did you ever read my previous postings about this subject here?

@traveller

Pakistanis admire Jinnah so much that they called him the father of their country. Yet,

A. He was an English aristocrat who ate pork.
B. Wanted a secular state.
C. Did not mind marrying a non Muslim. He married a Zoroastrian 24 years younger than himself.

I think he was 42 and she was 18. She quickly became a muslim, but it seems that they did not get along very well, and later on in life she switched back to Zoroastrian.

Yet traveller, it seems that when Jinnahs daughter married a Christian he was vehemently opposed to it. He wanted her to marry a Muslim...so in this respect he was not very secular, why, and how does this fit in with the rest of his secularity?

There are other things that I will be asking as I reflect on Jinnahs negotiations with Ghandi...and his initial stance for a united India.

what are your thoughts on why he changed his mind regarding a united India? Was he forced into it, or did he realize that he could not get what he wanted?

@ Steiner

Jinnah was an aristocrat and intellectual, western style. He wanted a peaceful India with all religious groups in peace and no distinction. He had no desire whatsoever to see one religious group controlling the others. He didn't even know the muslim prayers.
Jinnah considered Pakistan the land of the muslims but with absolute equal rights for everybody else. Since the muslims were 90% of the population islam became automatically state religion, but he told the Pakistani people that the state had to be secular. He didn't believe in a "sharia" law, his bible was the British law and system. He was an english educated lawyer.
Jinnah would have vociferously opposed imposing any religion on other people. He would have openly condemned Al Quaida and fought them mercilessly. He would never have interfered in Kosovo or in any other country. The only military action he condoned was to defend the Pakistani territory in Kashmir where the Indian army took over the state against the desire of the majority of the population, I have written about this before. Mountbatten was the idiot here.
Actually, the British colonial office had a divide and rule policy here and Mountbatten agravated it by his personal relation to Nehru. Everything Nehru asked for was granted beforehand.
Jinnah was familiar with christian education and respected secular christians. Jinnah, against all lies spread about him, was not a religious man, he was a Renaissance man who did not agree with the way the muslims were treated.
He would have been exactly the same as a hindu, straight, honest, sophisticated. His daughter married a parsee(zoroasthrian) and lives with her husband and children in India. He did not object to that but for political reasons never spoke about it in public.

@Traveller

Traveller, from the little reading that I have done on the net, i get the feeling that Jinnah's eventual goal was a muslim India? What is your opinion?

Did Jinnah ever support islam as the state religion of Pakistan?

Based on how Jinnah addressed Islam in India, how would he address it in Europe today, or even in Kosovo?

How could Jinnah's thinking and approach have changed had he been a Hindu? or a Christian?

Once again Traveller, thank you for your information and time.

@ Steiner

The worst mistake: Mountbatten.
They should have listened to Jinnah and Ghandi and shot Nehru and Sardar Patel.
Christianity has saved India for the future, they were the only "human" developpers in that country and the only teachers of values.
I have already given 2 books which are worth reading. Further read the columns of www.dawn.com and go to the left hand table and select : 1)Cowasjee and 2) Irfan Husain.
Select also Tavleen Singh on www.indianexpress.com but that is very irregular.
The best weekly is India Today and also the Herald. They both appear in England.

@ Steiner

Yes, a hell of a lot and it is in full development since Rajiv started to relax the statecontrol. Afterwards the BJP made their alliance with the local small ethnic parties, which, for the first time in Indian history gave some small freedom of action to the local governments and immediately the economy picked up. The BJP had not intended this, they wanted only alliances against Congress but afterwards they couldn't stop it anymore.
Don't misunderstand me, I don't hate India or hindus, I have many friends there, but I cannot accept the muslim bashing by the hindus because they have exactly the same problems and the same culture within certain limits. If both parties take care of themselves and leave the other alone they would both benefit.
The situation is what it is, difficult to change, India has today more future prospects than Pakistan where that situation was exactly the opposite in the fifties and sixties when Pakistan had a tremendous boom and the Minister of Economy of Pakistan was invited to South-Korea to explain how Pakistan did it. His name was Mahbool-ul-Haq if I remember correctly. This boom was only due to the work of the Mohajirs from India.
Those Mohajirs lost control to the Punjabis and Sindhis and bang, everything down the drain.
My objections are that the continuous sabotageing of each other has to stop and the focus should come on development and not on religious "arguments" which are irrelevant for people of the same origins and culture.
I can go on and on about this subject but I cannot change anything, they have to change their focus.

@traveller

Traveller, do you think India has improved since the English left?

What should the English have done better to improve the state of India?

What were the worst mistakes that the English made in India?

In your opinion, how has Christianity contributed to the Indian state of affairs?

Is there a book that you would recommend for reading...or why dont you write one?

Thanks for your time and information. I am looking at India from the outside.

@ Steiner

As far as atrocities towards hindu women is concerned, this report is absolutely right. It happened, again, in Sindh in a couple of dozen cases.
On another topic of abortion here in another comment I made, I spoke about a report from the French Television which went to Haryana and Punjab in India and learned from the female director of the concerned department in the Delhi Ministry of Health that 50 million girls had been aborted in those 2 Indian states in the last 20 years. What I didn't tell yet was that currently in every Haryana and Punjabi village were minimum 10 or more kidnapped Nepalese or Benghali or Assamese women, sold by traffickers to people who took them as slave wives to bear children.
They were sold for 6000 to 40.000 rupees.
I told you before that the 2 cultures are the same and as long as you don't realise that there is no solution.
Dowry-burnings still exist by the thousands, Sathi burning of brides of death husbands on the same pyre still exists so much that the law forbidding them has been reiterated 3 times until 1989. Forget the religious differences, look at the brutal culture of both groups, they are the same.

@ Steiner

For the sake of being complete I will respond to your last comment. The BBC report is correct, but what they did not say is that at the same time those 5 hindu people were kidnapped, thousands of muslims were kidnapped by the same gangsters.
The biggest gangster of Sindh, the kidnap province with the most illiterate people of Pakistan, is the uncle of Benazir, Mumtaz Bhutto, THE kidnap specialist for ransom and the biggest holder of slaves, muslims please, of Asia: 25000. Further, Mr. Mumtaz is invited on every party of the Indian embassy and consulate. One of the kidnapped hindu victims was from Larkhana, the Bhutto city where nothing happens without approval of Mumtaz.
The sugar barons of Maharashtra around Nagpur have exactly the same methods and occupations in their sugarcane fields. that's where my question came from, are you from India or do you look at it from the outside?
The 80 million hindu deaths in India are probably a tad exagerated. Don't forget that there were never more than 7000 Afghan cavalry who invaded India.
When you speak about disrupting the Indian state I guess you think about present India? India has never been a unified country before the English took control of the country. The Moghuls had only North- and Middle-India. As for disrupting modern India, I don't think so. The BJP and Shiv Senna do much more harm to India than Pakistan will ever achieve.

more info

Thanks for the info. traveller. Also check these sites out for more info:

http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/Pakistan/IndexPakistan.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6367773.stm

http://www.hinduamericanfoundation.org/pdf/hhr_2005_html/pakistan.html

or no longer willing to associate with infidels:

http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/Pakistan/PakistanAtrocitiesAgainstHinduWomen.html

@ Steiner

Yes, hindus, parsees and christians are allowed to be citizens of Pakistan. If they live in a good neighbourhood they will be considered as full respected citizens, if they live in a rural village they will have problems by bigotry, just like the muslims in India. It's all a matter of culture and NOT of religion.
By focusing on religion you miss the point of India/Pakistan problems. They are the same people with the same culture and it's drawbacks. When the father of a middle class hindu family with property dies, the family will have problems for 30 years or more in court because of all fake debt claims that the other family-members will introduce in court until such time that the family of the deceased gives in to the blackmail. This is the hindu culture and is valid in 100% of the cases of death middle-class family fathers.
The hindu religion is the only religion in the world with a goddess for money: Lakhsmi.
It gives a certain perspective to their culture. Diwali, their New-Year type celebration is in honour of Lakhsmi.

the islamic ideology

Traveller, as Ive noted in my previous post...the problem is with Islam, that is: the ideology of islam.

This I made obvious as we see how Islam rips even brothers apart.

In the case of India...it is not the Hindus that are asking to separate, it is the Muslims.

Tell me now, are Hindus allowed to be citizens of Pakistan? and who is doing the persecuting in Pakistan?

These arguments of retaliation against the Hindus sound a lot like those arguments muslims use againsts the Europeans after the Europeans decided to fight back against the Islamic storm.

Hence, Muslim logic dictates that Muslims can rip your countries apart, but you cannot respond, or else they will rip your country apart.

A bit like: be nice and I will rape you, otherwise I may kill you if you fight back...

As regards to deporting muslims, whether they are European or not; if they wish to keep muslim costumes they must be deported to a muslim country.

@ Steiner

My dear Steiner I really, really don't want to argue with you about "the muslims" and "the hindus", but don't forget that those muslims you want to kick out of India are converted hindus from the past.
The very large majority of the muslims of India don't come from Arab or Central Asian countries, they come from hindu families of India.
The muslim and hindu cultures in India are actually cultural mirrors of each other.
It is only the old cultural restrictions through the hindu caste system and transferred on the "inferior muslims" which makes it so difficult in India, they ARE the same people for God's sake.
Now about hindus in Pakistan, they are chased out by fear of reprisals for the muslims murdered in India and they were right, many hindus were murdered in Pakistan.
The only difference is that Jinnah defended them and told his people to respect the hindus, to cherish them as brothers and to leave them untouched.
Neither Nehru nor Ghandi did the same thing for the muslims in India.

If you want to learn something about that, read:
1) Jinnah of Pakistan by Stanley Wolpert
2) The sole Statesman by Ayesh Jalal

Jinnah did NOT want to divide India, Nehru did.

By the way I am a Flemish catholic with many points of criticism against the muslims in Europe for whom I have much less patience than for their really poor co-religionist people in India.

The muslims: forever the victims

The problem: the muslims get their states, but then they stay in India, and continue as if nothing has happened. In fact, they begin to ask for more land. Yet, they expect India as a nation to invest in areas that wish to secede!??

What of Pakistan? why should the limelight be on India, when Pakistan systematically persecutes Hindus? When the Hindus have been forced to leave Pakistan altogether? Do you hear of any rioting by Hindus in Pakistan? any bombings there by Hindus wanting to secede? Can a Hindu be a citizen in Pakistan?

On the other hand, Traveller, you have missed the whole point altogether. Sure there are problems in India, and of course the Hindus are not going to be nice anymore when Muslims keep on taking Indian lands and expect to be treated as citizens of the state, when in fact that vote will go towards secession as they build a majority using demographic war, and then restart the process all over again in the India that is left.

The Muslims protest and they blame Indian society, and they blame Islamophobia, and they talk about being victimized, and the 54 Muslim nations(how did we get 54 when there was only 1) begin a Jihad at the U.N.

But why are you putting the onus on India? at least India recognizes them still, to its detriment, as citizens.

As a consequence why should India allow the Muslims to remain when they keep on wanting separation, secession?

And why did not all Muslims leave altogether, once they got their states?

Its time to state the obvious. By accepting an independent Kosovo, the Serbs are damning themselves to a continuous war, which they will surely lose.

If the Muslims wish to keep their customs, they should be deported immediately back to one of the muslim states. There are over 54 of them.

@ marcfrans

Since you already told me before that I missed the big picture I want to come back on that principle alone.
If you want to have a serious big picture impression you need a minimum of basic elements like:
-democracy or dictatorship
-economic freedom or not
-free justice or not
-free press or not
1) democracy: see above, I say it's a democracy only in name and I am not alone. The best journalist of India, mrs. Tavleen Singh agrees with me, she writes in the Indian Express and in India Today and some other major weeklies
2) Economic freedom: just starting because of IT, but the fight for control by the old guard is on.
3)Free justice: definitely not. The justice system is totally corrupt and establishment serving. I fought for incredible cases and I could only win by involving the maffia, than it was solved in weeks: a black african man was in a Bombay jail for 8 years without ever seeing a judge. He was innocent. I got him out via Amar Naïk who got him out in 3 weeks.
4) Free press: starting but under Indira no such animal existed. It is a freedom of a few journalists and the rest is establishment bound like in Belgium, but Belgium is definitely not a real democracy.
I am really going for the real meaning here.
In any case the day India becomes a real democracy and educates it's masses it will split up in it's ethnic divide.

@ marcfrans

Apart from the fact that I like and respect 90% of what you are writing, if not more, I cannot let this one pass.
I lived in India from 1989 to 1992. I visited the whole of India and lived mostly in Bombay.
By a bad choice, I really didn't know the area, I lived on Mohamed Ali Road and came to realise that I lived in the hard core of the muslim community.
All the banks in that area were state banks, not one muslim was working in those banks in the 100% muslim area.
The muslims are not considered human beings there, they are just second class offal, allowed to survive on whatever scraps are left.
The problem here is that the hindus themselves live in castes and consider the lower castes also as lowlifes. So for the hindus the fact of considering muslims like lower than lowlifes is not a major soulsearching problem.
In 1990 9 out of the 10 major corporations were the same corporations which had already obtained licences from the British.
The only exception was Dirubhai Ambani with his Reliance corporation, he was close to Indira and Rajiv but he did it all alone. The society was ironclad structured with no way of escape.
The chance came in Bangalore when the Indian defense industry needed educated people to absorb the advanced russian defense technology and copy or repair it. Bangalore catholic university started forming very good engineers and electronic experts. The students were mainly catholic converts(the only way to get a free quality education).
Than IT came looking from the US and the Indian catholic students took their chance with both hands, they went full scale into the electonics age and into IT.
This changed the Indian picture and gave the chance to some Indian people to do their own thing.
Immediately the fight started between young and old, because the capital was in the hands of a few families, maximum 30/40 families controlled India's capital, of which 4 were Parsee, 1 was Gujerati(the Ambanis) and the rest were Marwaris(the jews of India as far as business accumen is concerned). I don't speak about the Jains and their diamond capital because it's completely black market and doesn't even touch the capital market of India.
The other capitalists and black marketeers are the Cutchi Memons, from the Ran of Cutch. They were historically smugglers and fantastic seamen. They control today the wheatflour supply of India and the meatmarkets of India(hindus don't touch the meatbusiness).
The diamond, wheatflour and meatbusiness are black market and nothing else.
The economical drive of India is now due to IT, generic and new farmaceuticals by copying the new and expired western patents while they started now their own developments very timidly but they are slowly succeeding with capital gained by illegally copying. Anyway they are going well now and are respecting the rules on the worldmarket, not in India.
Role of the muslims in this: the flour and meat business in the black market and in the hands of a few dozen people.
Schools for muslims: zero, nada, zilch.
If the catholics wouldn't have the best schools they would be in the same boat, but they have the best schools and are coming out on top, at least the few tenthousand who can go to school, the capacity of the catholic schools is not big enough.
The rich hindus send their children first to the best catholic schools and then abroad. The poor stay poor and dumb with no chance of improvement.
Democracy? I think it's a joke. Shiv Senna wins in Maharashtra with the help of the gangsters I just mentioned and it is everywhere in India the same. The large majority is poor and illiterate and voteqs completely sloshed with bang(a drug with milk) and vote with a thumbprint while their hand is held by the gangsters. They don't even know for whom they vote. This is in every major city and everywhere in rural India.
The present prime minister Manmohan Singh was the main cause for the biggest stock market crash in Indian history and the fall guy for it was murdered in jail to keep him from spilling the beans.
I can go further about Pakistan but that country has been raped so many times that the poor girl doesn't even know if she is dead or alive.
Sorry but from time to time it comes back although I really don't want to do it anymore.

Big picture interpretation

@ Traveller

As you know, we disagree on this one.  I recognise your 'familiarity' with South Asia, but I fear that your expert knowledge of numerous details stands in the way of proper 'big picture' interpretation.  This is my opinion and, obviously, not certain 'truth'.

India is a 'continent' of over a billion people.  Like any other continent it has its share of nutcases, extremists of all kinds, etc... And this is very visible, precisely because India is today a very open society with a free press etc...  Castigating India for the horrors of 'partition', over half a century ago, is the quivalent of castigating Europeans for the holocaust, Japanese for 'Nanking etc..', etc...

The reality is that India is a democracy. Its Hindu majority 'tolerates' a muslim president, a 'Sikh' prime minister, etc... It tolerates a diversity of thriving major religions, buddhists in the North, christians in the south, etc...It has regular elections, and power alternates.  It has freedom of political speech, though imperfectely, but not worse than 'Europe' today.  India is far from being a perfect democracy (who isn't?), the more so because it is still very poor and has only recently achieved economic 'take-off'.  

Except for recent rapid economic growth, there is nothing comparable to that in Pakistan nor Bangladesh.  There is no tolerance of religious diversity there, and no 'independent' judiciary, no freedom of the press, no regular power alternation among distinct ideologies, etc...

The "peaceful Hindu" is NOT a myth.  But you must be fairminded enough to place him or her in a 'big picture', which is proportional and contextual, and not be blinded by inevitable details.  

P.S. Unlike you, I have never 'lived' or resided in India, nor Pakistan. But I have lived among both Hindu and Muslim communities of 'South Asians' in several other countries. In my opinion, there is a significant difference in terms of 'tolerance of the other' (any other) between Hindus and Muslims in general.

@ Steiner

Dear Sir,

I don't know if you are a hindu living in India or a non-Indian European looking from the outside.
The peaceful hindu is a myth.
There are 50 murders per day in Bombay alone amongst peaceful hindus. Indira started the unwritten law that this does not appear in the news anymore, except terrorist acts nobody can ignore, but gangwars are ignored and all other murders.
There are 30,000 affiliated gangsters in the 2 gangster families of 1)Amar Naïk and 2)Arun Gawli. They are both affiliated with Shiv Senna, the Marathi local party of Bal Thackeray(what's in a name), who thinks Adolf Hitler was a great man.
Before and during separation of India the muslims were murdered by Sardar Patel, a Moscow KGB trained terrorist-avant-la-lettre who under direction of Nehru and against the wishes of Ghandi and Jinnah chased the muslims out of today's India. The muslims retaliated by also murdering hindus. 17 million people were displaced but it was all done on purpose to diminue the muslim influence in the modern India.
The plan was originally put before Nehru by the British colonial office because of the huge demographic explosion of the muslim population.
This is a very bad example for castigating the "muslims". There are better examples in Brussels and Antwerp.

Something to think about II continued

Ask the Islamists this question: would they seek apartheid if they lived among peace loving people? Would they peacefully live side by side with those practicing another religion?

In the case of India, muslims could not have had a better case for peace than Ghandi. Are there any islamists who would regard Ghandi as a man who did not honestly seek peace? A man who wished to live among his brothers despite the differences in religion? The English believed him and left...he therefore had an established vein on which a society could build on.

Yet, the muslims wished for apartheid, for separation, for secession, and so Pakistan and Bangladesh broke away from India.

It does not end there because the muslims have not finished asking. Yet, no one bothers to speak about the Hindus in Pakistan...yeah the Hindus in Pakistan...have you heard about how well treated Hindus in pakistan?

There are muslims in India still...they are very vocal; in fact, now muslims are asking that Kashmir and the Punjab also secede from india...

what of the Hindus in Pakistan, in Bangladesh? does the U.N. ever address the plight of the Hindus in these countries? what are they asking for ?

The Albanians want a 'Greater Albania'

Like many others here, I don’t want to waste my time with endless and pointless feuds with Jason. He does not seem to be able to understand historical facts.

This a Jason quote:
 
‘I understand precisely what you are concerned about with the "precedent" set by Kosovo. However, Albanians are Europeans who converted to Islam, they are not immigrants who migrated to a country and then tried to establish their own sovereign state.’

The very simple concept that he does not understand is the ethnic ‘Albanians’ migrated into Kosovo. They voluntarily left their native Albania and flowed into Kosovo in larger and larger numbers. During their invasion of Kosovo, a majority of the Serbs moved further North toward Belgrade.
 
What the Albanians want is a ‘greater Albania’ that is Serb free. They invaded Kovoso and want to form a new sovereign state. Anyone who has followed the history of Kosovo since 1985 would understand this change. Jason just does not understand the history of Serbia.

Something to think about

One of the reasons that has convinced me that the problem lies with the ideology of Islam, and not the people, is the very fact that throughout the history of Islam, the people that committed the worst atrocities were the ones that converted to Islam, and turned on those who did not.

The idea of separation in Islam is a very real one, and it is mainly responsible for the hatred that slowly builds up in societies where Islam begins to make inroads.

The islamists think that they are the chosen people...all over again...and when there are 1.5 billion people thinking this and trying to separate themselves from those that are -dirty- then we have these very problems of splitting societies...

Because Islam is a hybrid religion(copied from Hebrew and Christian ) it does some things very badly as it mixes them, and this idea of separation is one of them. Let me explain:

With the Hebrews, separation also exists. God keeps His people separate by making them adhere to many customary laws...but at the same time Israel is given specific boundaries as to where it is allowed to exist. People often tend to make fun of the idea that God gave the state of Israel boundaries, but in hindsight it is a great idea!

Israel was chosen to wait for its messiah and keep itself Holy. Israel was not supposed to go out and make converts, but stay in its limited boundaries, and keep itself from becoming like the other nations by following those strict customs. Following those customs would prevent others from liking you...hence keeping you separate.

Christianity on the other hand, explains that Israel was chosen to keep itself ...Holy...but that was because God had chosen Israel as a means through whom the Messiah would come. The Hebrews were supposed to keep themselves Holy in order for their Messiah to come among them ...

Christians say that the Messiah came..it was Jesus and with Jesus, so did His kingdom come near; residing in the heart of those that would believe.

Once the Messiah came, than He would show his followers how to spread the Kingdom.... to live peacefully among other nations and show the life inspired by the celestial Kingdom through Christ...

Unfortunately for the muslims and the rest of us, mohammed copied from both Hebrew and Christian doctrine. He hybridized the idea of separation with the Christian command to go out and make desciples.

With the Hebrew case, mohammed disregarded that Israel had boundaries; with the Christian case, he disregarded that Christians dropped all those customs in order to attract unbelievers.

In Christianity, Holiness is obtained through the Spirit of Jesus the Messiah, dwelling and purifying the hearts of those who follow him, as they become living examples of the life in the kingdom of Jesus..(the premise is that the Gospel can be spread peacefully, and meaningfully only with the Spirit of the Messiah Jesus)

Hence when muslims go out(because they copied Christianitys command to go out and make disciples), they have to keep the customs of separation copied from the Hebrew principles...

As a result, since Muslims require to keep themselves customarily clean and not to be dirtied by the infidels, they can only follow the command of going out by taking the land and customarily cleaning it for themselves in order to live there... and make converts. (a short circuit ideology at best)

Obviously in the process, the infidels will not gladly give their land away to a people that considers them dirty, and has sharia customs that are stone age in concept and are not willing to rend the heart but only the clothing...(this is shown by the way muslims legally (according to islamic rules)and systematically prey on infidel women as sex slaves while at the same time believing that they remain pure...and yet not willing that muslim women use the same loophole to do the same...which makes one wonder about the relative mentality of right and wrong in muslim thought...

Separation goes also by other terms: Apartheid, racism.... Racism is not a proper term, since the Islamists do not belong to one race(although they often accuse their victims of being racist), and neither do their victims...so I shall use the term apartheid.

Islamists use this idea of apartheid to make their case mainly against Europeans and other societies. Let us look at this a bit closer through the eyes of history by touching on India and what used to be Indian territories, and how muslim Indians there have and are treating the Indian Hindus. This also applies to the Hindus in Malaysia where their recent demonstrations were quelled.

@ Jason

Don't bother answering my comments anymore, you are done as far as I am concerned.

@siegetower

I apologize if I was insulting to you. I only intended to be insulting to traveller and Paganini.

I understand precisely what you are concerned about with the "precedent" set by Kosovo. However, Albanians are Europeans who converted to Islam, they are not immigrants who migrated to a country and then tried to establish their own soverign state.

I am not a Christian and am thus uninterested in "defending Christendom". I believe that you are holding a large double standard. I am as anti-Islamist as anyone, yet I'm not anti-Islamic. I don't believe that a people should be denied their right to self-determination simply on the basis of their religion, and I don't believe that my anti-Islamism requires me to support thuggish Serbian nationalism.

This debate

One thing I must point out here. Jason, we are not insulting you, at least directly, but you seem to resort to insults in every second reply. I am trying to be civil. I hope you are.

You're entitled to your opinion given the things you know and have learned, we are entitled to believe you're wrong/misinformed, and try to reveal to you the truth.

___________________
Defend Christendom. Defend Jewry. Oppose socialism in Europe.

@ Jason

To help you start thinking a little bit clearer:
Bulgarians of today are a mix of Thracians, Bulgars and Muslim Turks.
The Thracians lived always there, the Bulgars came from Asia in the 6th and 7th century.
Spartacus was a Thracian.
Albania is 70% Muslim.
The original Albanians were probably speaking some type of Roman related Latin, there language today is related to Latin. The original Albanians were few and fought the Turks ferociously. The Turks put massive occupation forces there and drafted the strong young men in their army, depleting the people of it's strong males.

@ Jason

I don't know nothing about the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo, maybe it's true, maybe it's not very true, I don't know, I wasn't there and I cannot find reliable figures. All I found was a UN report that Milosevic killed 80 protesters, ethnic cleansing??? I was in Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia for business purposes for years under communism and I heard the atrocities committed by the Turks on those populations until the middle of the 19th century. I knew that they hated the Turks. You are saying bluntly that the Albanians came to Kosovo in the 19th century. That sounds as a then Turkish invasion from Albania to me, in any case I am sure it was a small group then which came to occupy the land for the Turks. The Serbs couldn't do anything then, could they? And the Serbs didn't do anything until the late 20th century, they just wanted the land back from the Turks as they saw it. Meanwhile the Kosovo Albanian Turks grew to a sizeable population and I still would like to know what the growth of that population was from 1980 to today? Any guesses???

@ Jason

In the interest of your self-preservation, don't ever tell a Slavic Bulgarian that he is a Turc. This is sound advise.
For your further information, I lived 20 years in pure muslim countries, I know the difference, thank you.
Further, under communist rule all Turkish Bulgarians had to change their Turkish names to Bulgarian names. That was valid for TURKISH Bulgarians. Now you can tell me that the Bulgarians were ignorant about their being all Turks, but they probably didn't read the Enc. Brit.
Further the Bulgarian Turks look different from the Slavic Bulgarians, you can pick them out any time just walking past them on the street.
The Turks could not control the Albanian populution without having a big occupational force. The Greeks chased all Turks and killed many of them. The Greeks stayed Christian, the majority of Albanians are Turks and that's why they stayed Muslim; The Bulgarian Turks stayed Muslim, the Rumanian Turks stayed Muslim, the Greek Turks stayed Muslim and died or fled.
I spent years in those countries and talked to hundreds of them, but it is true, they didn't write in the Enc. Brit.

Kosovo would set a precedent that Europe cannot afford

To allow Kosovo independence is to set a precedence that encourages other muslim city states all over Europe to do the same....ie: Brussel, Leeds....

When every muslim state systematically and brutally persecutes its nonmuslim population and commits public atrocities in the name of islam, it would be stupid if not downright suicidal for Europe to tolerate the intolerant.

The pattern is there for everyone to see. From the Philippines, to Thailand, to India, to Malaysia, Indonesia..etc. etc. and within our own countries; wherever muslims are in a majority they persecute nonmuslims systematically.

The result in Europe will be much like that in Kosovo now, or in India, or in the Philippines...societies will be fragmented and set against each other. All this because islam is a political-religious entity that seeks separation, independence and then more of the same as it wages demographic wars to spread itself in new territory and begin the process all over again.

If alternatively Jason would argue that he wishes to see Malaysia begin to give autonomy to its persecuted Indian population, or Turkey to allow the Kurds and the Christians independence, or Iran, or Egypt allow its Christian population independence, or Indonesia allow Papuan independence....and every muslim nation treat its nonmuslim population as equal, than I would think Jason to be honest...

Yet, has Jason ever argued at all anywhere else for the rights of these groups to their independence?

I suspect not...

Albanians became the

Albanians became the dominant ethnic group in Kosovo in the 19th century.

Listen, as I've previously noted, I'm not denying the actions of the KLA, but if you are going to engage in Noam Chomsky-style denial of the brutal massacres and ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the Serbs in Kosovo in 1999, then this conversation can no longer serve a purpose.

@traveller

Albanians are not ethnic-Turks, regardless of what you claim they told you. Moreover, you seem to be, characteristically, confusing "Muslim" with "Turkish".

"They were continuously under ottoman rule for 800 years and you are going to tell me that they are not Turks, or at least majority Turks?"

The Greeks were likewise under Ottoman domination for 600 (not 800) years. Are you claiming they are Turks as well?

Anyway, you seem profoundly confused as to history and even the concept of ethnicity. I assure you: Bulgarians are ethnic-Turks who migrated to the Balkans and adopted the Slavonic language. A quick perusal of any Encyclopedia Britannica (volume "B") will be sufficient for you to disabuse yourself of your ignorance.

@ Jason

Answer my previous question please: how many Albanians were in Kosovo in 1980 and how many Serbs?

@ Jason

I was one of the very few european visitors to communist Albania in the early 1970's and they definitely called themselves Turks proudly.
They were continuously under ottoman rule for 800 years and you are going to tell me that they are not Turks, or at least majority Turks? Even under communism they prayed 5 times a day.
"Bulgarians are Turks", B...sh..!!! Bulgarians have a large Turk minority, but Bulgarians are Slav people. I travelled to Bulgaria from 1968 to 1979 every 2 to 3 months for minimum 1 week each and I had a lot of discussions about this. The Bulgarian maffia was Turkish and bribed the Slavic Bulgarian communist politicians to ignore their heroin passage from Turkey to Europe through Bulgaria.
You want to teach something to other people get some background and stop trying to convince us of your drivel.

@ Paganini & siegetower

Paganini, this discussion has become otiose. You are a bigot with an abysmal understanding of history and are clearly incapable of addressing my arguments. I will, however, indulge myself one last time:

"Muslims can invade a country (by war, immigration, demographics), destroy the culture, religion and language of a region, and afterwards claim it is theirs forever."

Where did I ever claim this? To bring the matter back to the issue at hand, the ethnic Albanians are ancient inhabitants of the Balkans who converted to Islam under Ottoman domination —for which you clearly do not forgive them. The ethnic-Albanians of Kosovo were placed in a multi-ethnic state that disintegrated in the 1990's and is in its final death throes now. I do not recall reading anything on this site bemoaning the independence of Montenegro from Serbia just a few months ago. Indeed, just a week ago Paul had a post up celebrating the virtues of "small states".

But alas, the ethnic-Albanians of Kosovo made the mistake of converting to Islam 400 years ago and thus apparently forfeit their right to all of the things this site claims to be inalienable: namely the principles of nationhood and self-determination.

So for all of you bigoted idiots that keep repeating the mantra: "KOSOVO IS SERBIA", I guess the only proper response is: "FLANDERS IS BELGIUM".

Btw siegetower, I in no way deny atrocities committed by ethnic-Albanians, but to snivel about the historical "entitlement" of the Serbs after their undeniably paramount complicity in the systematic genocide of the 90's beggars belief. You might as well be agitating for the rights of Germans to reclaim Silesia and East Pomerania from the Poles.

A quote from Osama bin Laden, December 2007

“There are only three choices in Islam: either submit [i.e., convert to Islam], or live under the suzerainty of Islam, or die. Such, then, is the basis and foundation of the relationship between the infidel and Muslim. Battle, animosity, and hatred — directed from the Muslim to the infidel — is the foundation of our religion.”

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/ibrahim121607.html

I submit this just to remind everyone of what we are up against.
__________________
Defend Christendom. Defend Jewry. Oppose socialism in Europe.

@ Jason : Did you look at the Fjordman essay?

Well? Did you?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019030.php

Read about the massacres of the Serbs, the ethnic cleansing of the Serbs. The prevention of Serbian population movement back to Kosovo after WWII. Ethnic cleansing by the multicultual Yugoslavian, Tito, and Albanians before the 1990s and since.

Are the Serbs not entitled to retain their lands in the face of generations of oppression?

As I said before, I once was on the side of "The Serbs are bad, they killed people"...Since then I've learned that it's too complex a situation to have such a narrow viewpoint.

KOSOVO IS SERBIA
__________________
Defend Christendom. Defend Jewry. Oppose socialism in Europe.

anyway, lets keep this

the arabs invaded in the 7th century the middle East & North Africa and destroyed many majority populations, imposed islam and arab language, destroying christian civilisation.... are you comparing this to the european colonisation-period ? what a joke

anyway, lets keep this simple: jason, you are right, in everything ! Muslims can invade a country (by war, immigration, demographics), destroy the culture, religion and language of a region, and afterwards claim it is theirs forever. Ofcourse the invaded ones never have the right to claim that territory.

What a meaningfull and modern notion !

Jason my son, keep up spreading the good news!

@ traveller & paganini

Race is a meaningless and outdated notion. Albanians are most certainly NOT ethnic Turks (though Bulgarians are), and they speak an indo-European language. Turkic languages are in a completely different family. Please do stop extracting facts from your ass.

Regardless, if you two ignoramuses want to play the irredentist game of historical priority of ethnic groups, Albanians are actually the one of the oldest inhabitants of the Balkans; the first reference to them is found in Polybius' geography in the 2nd century BC. That gives them 7 centuries of priority over the Slavs.

But again, I feel dirty all over having to point out such historical facts as an emolument to your committed ignorance. International law is not, nor should be based on the grievances and historical priority of "ethnic groups"...a transitive and largely meaningless concept. International law is based on human rights and the principle of the democratic self-determination of peoples.

Moreover, might I point out, as a reductio ad absurdum, the entailments of your position? Native Americans have complete rights over the entirety of the United States. Same with the Aborigines of Australia and NZ. The Welsh own all of the island of Britain. The Greeks are entitled to Southern Italy, Sicily, and all of Asia Minor (I'm sure you wouldn't mind the last bit, as it concerns talking land away from Muslims). The Bulgarians and Hungarians must be deported back to Russia. The Germans, of course, should be returned the Alsace. And the Dutch should have northern France. I could go on and on and on...

Oh and I should note that, while I am a committed anti-Islamist, your sniveling about "imperialistic islamic peoples" is just too ironic. Remind me who owned almost all of the Middle East just 60 years ago?

For the supporters of an Islamic Kosovo entry to the EU

Anyone who reads the current history of Kosovo will find data that gives detail to the ‘ethnic cleansing’ of the Serbs and the destruction of Serb churches in Kosovo. Just do a Google search for Kosovo, ethnic cleansing and Kosovo Liberation Army. You will find a lot of useful information that documents the expansion of the ‘ethnic Albanians’ into Kosovo. This is information the Islamic apologists don’t want mentioned.

The expansion from Albania grew after the 1990s intervention by NATO and the rise of the Kosovo Liberation Army. The genocide claimed by the ethnic Albanians was largely exaggerated and unproven.
 
Ethnic cleansing by the Serbs did take place, but it was on a smaller scale then claimed by the ethnic Albanians. The Serbian ethnic cleansing by the Albanians continues to this day. If this Islamic expansion continues, the EU members will be placed at risk.

@ Jason

Explain me the phrase: ethnic Albanian of Kosovo?
The Albanian race doesn't exist, they are mainly ethnic Turks, and an ethnic Albanian of Kosovo is a complete enigma to me.

Ofcourse, the oldest ethnic

Ofcourse, the oldest ethnic group in any land has historical rights to it ! Don't accept that as natural, and you can as well abolish all international law, all borders, all nation-states. Don't accept that principle and we have little islamic states in the whole of europe within 50 years.

The only ones who will profit of this kind of madness are the imperialistic islamic peoples, imperialistic because that is the very nature of their religion and the strongest dynamic in their social structures.

Hmm...

This is exactly why a Palestinian state(which the Arabs have no right to, I might add) should be opposed.
An independent Kosovo will become a hub of jihad in the heart of Europe. At least its not part of the European Union. (yet)