Our Lady of Cultural Differences

Chokri Ben Chikha is a young Tunisian author, actor and singer. Ben Chikha was born and raised in Flanders, the Dutch-speaking north of Belgium. He has written a play and dance act about cultural differences to draw attention to the difficulties of young immigrants who are discriminated against by the natives.

The play is called “Our Lady of Flanders” (Onze Lieve Vrouw van Vlaanderen). The premiere is on 29 October in Brussels. The Brussels magazine Brussel XL asked the author: “Some of the dialogues are interspersed with antisemitism. What exactly is the meaning of that?” Ben Chikha answered:

 

“Antisemitism is alive amongst North Africans, whether you like it or not. It has to do with the Palestinian question. I am convinced that you have to talk about antisemitism. I am not going to solve it, but I have to show it. Moreover, not only the Arabs dislike Jews. My stepmother, a Polish woman, is very antisemitic as well. I think one should be able to laugh at anything, even at antisemitism.”

The latter sounds like a contradiction to me. He is not laughing at antisemitism, but at Jews. However, until I have seen the play I cannot judge. Perhaps the antisemitism is funny.

The poster for the play is probably meant to be funny too. It depicts the virgin Mary with a howling child and a bowl of blood. She is barebreasted and is sitting next to a shield with the arms of Flanders. As a muslim immigrant Ben Chikha is apparently allowed to use such images, which make fun of the Flemings and ridicule the religion many of them adhere to.

 

Contrary to what Ben Chikha says there are things that one had better not laugh at, such as Islamic religion for instance. Some time ago a Dutch artist showed the backs of naked women with verses from the Quran written on them. This was considered blasphemy. A Muslim extremist ritually slaughtered the artist, Theo van Gogh, in broad daylight. That, certainly, is a cultural difference worth noting.

Ben Chikha need not fear being murdered in the street. On the contrary, his play is being subsidised by the Ministry for Culture. After the performances in Brussels it goes on a six-month tour through Flanders. The government encourages schools to attend.

 

And on we go ...

Berlin's Deutsche Oper Cancels 'Idomeneo' on Security Concerns

By Catherine Hickley

Sept. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Berlin's Deutsche Oper canceled
four planned November performances of Mozart's "Idomeneo'' on
concern that the production's reference to world religions,
including Islam, raises an "incalculable security risk.''

"To avoid endangering its audience and employees, the
management has decided against repeating 'Idomeneo' in November
2006,'' the opera house said in a press release.

The "Idomeneo'' production, directed by Hans Neuenfels,
shows King Idomeneo staggering on stage carrying the decapitated
heads of Poseidon, Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad. German press
agency DPA said Berlin police have so far recorded no direct
threat to the opera house.

Re: Prayer to Muslims

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

*waving my handkerchief at you weakly while wiping tears from my eyes*

You stop that.. you bad boy!

Ohhhhhhhhh!

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

That made me hurt!

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

Sad

How cruel can one be to make humor of one's faith

Danish cartoons on Mohammed

I am an Indian Christian. I have some thoughts on the affair of Mohammed being caricaturised in the Danish paper vis a vis the image of the Virgin Mary with breasts displayed.
First of all I believe the Danish paper and the cartoonists will suffer what is put in the adage: Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.
It is not a simple question concerning freedom of speech. The West is by and large godless, ungodly - there is no understanding of the sacred anymore, nothing is sacred and what is profane is considered sacred. So what does it matter is Christ is depicted as a homosexual or the Virgin Mary is shown with her breasts. Anything goes! It points to a culture that is dying apart from the truth of the fact that the people of Europe are dying too with zero population growth. It is only a matter of time before these countries go down the drain - moral decline and decadence will see to it! Apart from birth control and the inability to foster family values.
I believe Europe will learn the hard way that the days of colonialism and the arrogance with which other cultures are viewed through "Boer" spectacles are over. When other cultures strike back at Europe, the wheel would have come full circle.
The East is rising and all this talk of "freedom of expression" and "freedom of press" is not going to achieve much because, the moral groundings of Europe have decayed beyond repair.
Freedom without responsibility and respect for cultures that existed as deep civilisations millenia before the barbaric hordes of Europe came to any form of enlightenment is vital if Europe desires to survive. Europe is a minority in a world that will soon be dominated by the East!
I believe this century will bring to Europe a bitter taste of the oppression they brought to other world cultures in the past as the word of Christ "What you sow, you will reap" is fulfilled.
Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind!

what you said (sleepwalker)

what you said (sleepwalker) assure what did i say before, what i said was East Christians (arab, indians,...) differ than west christians, East christians still have true believes and values, those are true christians.
by the way you are the only christian in this forum who deny the cartoons of Mohammed-pace be upon him-, and so you are the only East christian.
and that make sense about what i said.

This picture is disgracful

This picture is disgracful and insults not only Christianity, but Islam also, where Mary is honored as the mother of Jesus. It seems respect for religious figures no longer exist, and thats really sad.

Religion causes many more problems than it solves

I have been reading this thread and am flabbergasted at how ridiculous you all are. This thread sums up why we can certainly do without religion in this world. A great man once said - "In a society without religion , good people do good things and bad people do bad things . For good people to do bad things you only need to give them religion." - Steven Weinberg, winner of the 1979 Nobel Prize in physics.

I must also say that Islam is clearly the most intolerant religion. I suppose I would say that as I am a liberal, open minded individual. Suicide bombers and mercy killings are not found in very many religions. Can you people think outside the box for a minute and consider that you might all be wrong? I consider that I might be wrong all the time. I find it helps us understand each other. I have good friends who are muslim but when they say they want to wipe out all the jews and that jews are responsible for all the worlds problems I think its not right. When a family will not speak to their child ever again because they think differently i.e. they are gay, do not believe in islam etc. I think its not right. Of course all religions have intolerances but Islam has alot more than any. There is no room to bend at all. If you are Muslim you HAVE to follow a set way of live or you are cast out. And I must reiterate - Suicide bombers and mercy killings are not found in very many religions. Death threats for a cartoon?

religion sucks

I agree, and here is a quote you might like:
"But here steps in Satan, the eternal rebel, the first free-thinker and emancipator of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his bestial ignorance and obedience; he emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity, in urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge."
- Mikhail A. Bakunin

Intolerance appears to be the bedmate of Avramic religions - We are right, everyone else is wrong. That is; Pagans are wrong for christians, Infidels for muslims, goyim for jews, bourgeoisie for communists.

Pagans = infidels = goyim = bourgeoisie = the rest of us.
If I believed in god, then I would say thank god for the rest of us.

P.s. Being male, I like tits, jokes and cartoons. Keep'em coming.

Thank you (free thinking)

Thank you (free thinking) for your respective type of talking, you are one of few people who show respect when they talk to others.
i will tell you something: the differnce between Islam and other religions is that muslims live this life and they know it is temporary and they must do some things(duties and obligations) to reach the permanent life which is we promised by our god.
so it is not possible to let the religion away from our life, i hope you can get this point.
and so you cant consider this ridiculous from us.
thank you again for been respective.

To A muslimL

The word you are looking for is respectful...

respective has a different meaning!

see below.

re·spect·ful ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spktfl)
adj.
Showing or marked by proper respect.

re·spectful·ly adv.
re·spectful·ness n.

****************************

respective means:

re·spec·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-spktv)
adj.
Relating to two or more persons or things regarded individually; particular: successful in their respective fields.

re·spective·ness n

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

I am a muslim and I condemn this

This is totally unacceptable by all muslims. You guys apparently do not know alot about the middle east. First of all you will rarely find a religious Tunisian. These people (not all but most) have been brought up to be scularist .. ask any Arab. Second of all the virgin Mary is one of our sacred symbols as well and so is Jesus Christ .. we do not tolerate or allow any representation of neither of them. This play would never be shown in any part of the Islamic or Arab world. We CONDEMN it. This author person is someone who grew up in europe and like he said he had a polish mother. I call out for every muslim who reads this page to condemn this because it is totally unacceptable. We respect the feelings of others jnot to mention that we ourselves take offense in such things. I challenge anyone to prove that such a play can be played in any arab or muslim country including Tunisia itself. This person does not represent Islam or Tunisians even.

Proof? He is showing breasts and we are not allowed to show that. So there you have it ... he is a secular person witout even knowing him.

Peace ....

To Ziad!

"Second of all the virgin Mary is one of our sacred symbols as well and so is Jesus Christ .. we do not tolerate or allow any representation of neither of them. This play would never be shown in any part of the Islamic or Arab world. We CONDEMN it."

And that is the point Ziad, it is not up to You or any muslim to determine what happens in the west.. Take it home!

In muslim countries do as you please..but do not start dictating anywhere else. It is not your place to. I disagree with you, but at least here you are allowed to say what you think, or feel, or desire to achieve.. as long as you do not break the law. that is what this whole thing has really been about the impoistion of a few upon a larger majority.

No one asked you to like it. I do not like it personally! But he has the right to pursue his artistic expression and he did not kill anyone in order to do it! And that is what " Free Speech" is all about! I do not have to like or agree with what you say.. but I am obligated to allow you to say it.

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

Islam on Virgin Mary

My, my! This is an appalling attempy by Ben Chikha. TO defame Mariam, about whom the Quran says: "O Mariam! Surely Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the world!"

There are two things I have to say: 1) No Muslim in their sane mind would desecrate the image of Virgin Mary, or indeed of any woman in such a despicable way. 2) A Muslim may not offend any ohter person's religious sensibility. Not only is that not allowed in Islam - but as common human sense can determine - this would mean there is no difference between a blasphemous Muslim, and a blasphemous other-than-Muslim.

To those who wish to know more about what EXACTLY does Islam think of Lady Mariam, and Jesus Christ (both of whom cannot be depicted in pictures - along with other Prophets) here are two links. Please study before you form an opinion of all Muslims.
1. Translation of Chapter 19, Al-Maryam, of Quran: http://www.alislam.org/quran/translation/19.html
2. The Quran on Jesus Christ [known as "Isa"]:
http://www.vinnomot.com/MAsghar/Allah&JesusDeath.htm

Thank you & peace.

To Prophetess!

That is the whole point of "freedom of speech" You do not have to agree with it! But we must allow it! And honestly, if you do not like it, do not look at it. Simple! And before you get that righteous holier than thou anger upon you..My mother was a Roman Catholic!
She would not be happy, but she would not be screaming for anypone's blood either. And if she wa in your country she would respect your laws and not do such a thing. Here she would tell you to mind your own business and if you did not like it.. to go home.

Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!

Marry is Mother and Mohammed is Murderer

what ever Muslims think, as they often behave stupid, cartoons of mohammed shows reality and how bad mohammed really was, this is a real truth [sources http://www.answeringinfidels.com/content/view/61/42/ ] that mohammed has never behaved with humanity in his whole life, they say him prophet but he was a real devil, real evil

but in any case Marry to be shown with Breast, it hardly matters as a mother do feed her child... i mean we all are her child in someway.. and blood in his bowl shows who ever will hurt her child, she will give them a nice lesson, thanks to this artist that has seen what we think.........
those who cant interpret so i say more direct
as Muslims cant control to be stupid, and this shows how a muslim looks to a mother... perhaps even there own, so hear this
Muslims stop nonsense or this bowl will be completely fill

AllahHuFuckBar

thank you perfektm, you did

thank you perfektm, you did what i want to explain to all of you(how?)
my religion doesnt allow me to say what you said about mine, but it seems to be that your religion allows you to.
here is the difference between islam and another religions, islam respect other religions, so, sorry i cant reply your comment, acctually no need for that.
folks!!! no need to be smart to know what i mean.
thank you again perfektm :)

Muslim's here is the answer

"my religion doesnt allow me to say what you said about mine"
i know, u cant speak anything about Mohammed, but that never change the reality...

"but it seems to be that your religion allows you to."
thanks to god, that my religion allow me to say, what ever is true.. at least speaking and putting your point is more better then killing innocent and making terror attacks

"here is the difference between islam and another religions, islam respect other religions"
Oh really from where the word kafir came.... if Islam respect other religion then perhaps you must not be breaking temples, church's , shrine's and so on... you dont hav to go too far ... a few year back islam had shown its respect for other religions in bamiyan by breaking buddha statues..

More you can find in current work from turkey in cyprus where muslim destroy church's and oh from history see istanbul and india ... Truth speaks a lot, dont reclaim that "islam Religion of peace" better say "Islam religion of Pigs"
sorry readers its a abouse for pigs!

there is a saying from east perhaps from india that "intelegent persons speaks with his mouth 1st, then speak with diplomacy and then shows what he can do",
as being a part of intelligent-&-open society our newspaper speaks, if islam dont allow such things then why u have cartoons featuring jewish culture ? my message was a diplomacy on behalf of mordern world, and i m not from denmark, so dont do terror in denamark..

"so, sorry i cant reply your comment,"
no need to be sorry, even i haven't think of any feedback at all from s muslim.... prehaps a terror attack is what i though, if u track me out and blow urself up next to me.. who knows

"acctually no need for that. "
yes we know, no need for that, i mean truth islam can never accept and we dont want to hear one more lies...

perhaps that's a right saying from middleease "a good muslim is a dead muslim" :-)

you are talking about small

you are talking about small part of muslims who did that things, not all of them because muslims are 1.3 billions.
but anyway if you are talking about small attacks they did, go to iraq and afghanistan to see what did full armys do in that countries, a terrorist war with no difference between terrorist and children and women, kill them all because they are muslims.
if you read the full discussion in this page you will not find any bad word against christians or other religions, this is true muslims and trust me most of them are better than you think.
all of us denied the cartoon of mary, but all of you accept it about mohammed.
go to the old history and see what christians did when the won and what muslims did.
i think you cant understand me because you dont know any thing except what your government want you to know.
think about your life? money,woman? is that the life?

This Tunisian does not respresent Muslims

It is not allowed in our religion Islam to make fun of all prophets and messengers from Adam, Noah, Moses Jesus and his mother Mary and Mohamad peace be upon them all...and this Tunisian even if he is a Muslim he doe snot represent Islam and he even is breaking Islamic law by doing this poster of Mary peace be upon her...It is better to Go learn about Islam before you talk about it...

MUSLIM OR NOT DEPICTING PICTURES OF ANYONE NUDE IS NOT ALLOWED

I AM MUSLIM AND I FOUND NOTHING FUNNY ABOUT A NUDE PIC OF MARYAM(MARY)(ra).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran Translation
Surah At-Tahrim Ruku 2 Surah 66
Madina (107) 12 Ayahs

Ayah 12
Yusuf Ali And Mary the daughter of `Imran who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into her (body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations and was one of the devout (Servants).
Pickthall And Mary, daughter of Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was of the obedient.
Transliteration Wa maryamab nata imra_nal latu ahsanat farjaha_ fanafahna_ fihi mir ru_hina_ wa sad daqat bikalima_ti rab iha_ wa kutubihi wa ka_nat minal qa_nitin

5551 'Imran was traditionally the name of the father of Mary the mother of Jesus: see n. 375 to iii. 35. She was one of the purest of women, though the Jews accused her falsely of unchastity: cf. xix. 27-28. (66.12)
5552 Cf. xxi. 91. As a virgin she gave birth to Jesus: xix. 16-29. In xxxii. 9, it is said of Adam's progeny, man, that Allah "fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit". In xv. 29, similar words are used with reference to Adam. The virgin birth should not therefore be supposed to imply that Allah was the father of Jesus in the sense in which Greek mythology makes Zeus the father of Apollo by Latona or of Minos by Europa. And yet that is the doctrine to which the Christian idea of "the only begotten Son of God" leads. (66.12)
5553 Mary had true faith and testified her faith in the prophet Jesus and in his revelation as well as in the revelations which he came to confirm (and to foreshadow). She was of the company of the Devout of all ages.

The fifth thing that has been explicitly mentioned in this Surah(chapter in quran) is that God's Religion is absolutely fair and just. It has for every person just that of which he becomes worthy on the basis of his faith and works. No relationship or connection even with the most righteous person can be beneficial for him in any way and no relationship or connection with the most evil and wicked person can be harmful for him in any way. In this connection three kinds of women have been cited as examples before the holy wives in particular. One example is of the wives of the Prophets Noah and Lot, who, if they had believed and cooperated with their illustrious husbands, would have occupied the same rank and position in the Muslim community which is enjoyed by the wives of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be God's peace and blessings). But since they were disbelievers, their being the wives of the Prophets did not help them and they fell into Hell. The second example is of the wife of Pharaoh, who in spite of being the wife of a staunch enemy of God believed and chose a path of action separate from that followed by the Pharaoh's people, and her being the wife of a staunch disbeliever did not cause her any harm, and God made her worthy of Paradise. The third example is of Hadrat Maryam (Mary) (peace be upon her), who attained to the high rank because she submitted to the severe test to which God had decided to put her. Apart from Mary no other chaste and righteous girl in the world ever has been put to such a hard test that in spite of being unmarried, she might have been made pregnant miraculously by God's command and informed what service her Lord willed to take from her. When Hadrat Maryam accepted this decision, and agreed to bear, like a true believer, everything that she inevitably had to bear in order to fulfil Allah's will, then did God exalt her to the noble rank of Sayyidatu an-nisa' fil-Jannah: "Leader of the women in Paradise" (Musnad Ahmad).

Al-Muwatta Hadith
Hadith 54.8

Pictures and Images
Malik related to me from Nafi from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad from A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, that she bought a cushion which had pictures on it. When the Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, saw it, he stopped at the door and did not enter. She recognised disapproval on his face and said, "Messenger of God, I turn in repentance to God and His Messenger. What have I done wrong?" The Messenger of God, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "What is the meaning of this cushion?" She said, "I bought it for you to sit and recline on." The Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, said, "Those who make such pictures will be punished on the Day of Rising. It will be said to them, 'Bring to life what you have created'. Then he said, 'The angels do not enter a house in which there are pictures.' "

MUSLIM OR NOT DEPICTING PICTURES OF ANYONE NUDE IS NOT ALLOWED

I AM MUSLIM AND I FOUND NOTHING FUNNY ABOUT A NUDE PIC OF MARYAM(MARY)(ra).

A. Yusuf Ali Quran Translation

Surah(CHAPTER) At-Tahrim Ruku 2 Surah(CHAPTER) 66

Madina (107) 12 Ayahs

Ayah(verse) 12

Yusuf Ali translation

And Mary the daughter of `Imran who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into her (body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations and was one of the devout (Servants).

Pickthall translation

And Mary, daughter of Imran, whose body was chaste, therefor We breathed therein something of Our Spirit. And she put faith in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was of the obedient.

Transliteration

Wa maryamab nata imra_nal latu ahsanat farjaha_ fanafahna_ fihi mir ru_hina_ wa sad daqat bikalima_ti rab iha_ wa kutubihi wa ka_nat minal qa_nitin

5551
'Imran was traditionally the name of the father of Mary the mother of Jesus: see n. 375 to iii. 35. She was one of the purest of women, though the Jews accused her falsely of unchastity: cf. xix. 27-28. (66.12)

5552
Cf. xxi. 91. As a virgin she gave birth to Jesus: xix. 16-29. In xxxii. 9, it is said of Adam's progeny, man, that Allah "fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit".

In xv. 29, similar words are used with reference to Adam. The virgin birth should not therefore be supposed to imply that Allah was the father of Jesus in the sense in which Greek mythology makes Zeus the father of Apollo by Latona or of Minos by Europa.

And yet that is the doctrine to which the Christian idea of "the only begotten Son of God" leads. (66.12)

5553
Mary had true faith and testified her faith in the prophet Jesus and in his revelation as well as in the revelations which he came to confirm (and to foreshadow). She was of the company of the Devout of all ages.

The fifth thing that has been explicitly mentioned in this Surah(chapter in quran) is that God's Religion is absolutely fair and just.

It has for every person just that of which he becomes worthy on the basis of his faith and works. No relationship or connection even with the most righteous person can be beneficial for him in any way and no relationship or connection with the most evil and wicked person can be harmful for him in any way.

In this connection three kinds of women have been cited as examples before the holy wives in particular. One example is of the wives of the Prophets Noah and Lot, who, if they had believed and cooperated with their illustrious husbands, would have occupied the same rank and position in the Muslim community which is enjoyed by the wives of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be God's peace and blessings).

But since they were disbelievers, their being the wives of the Prophets did not help them and they fell into Hell. The second example is of the wife of Pharaoh, who in spite of being the wife of a staunch enemy of God believed and chose a path of action separate from that followed by the Pharaoh's people, and her being the wife of a staunch disbeliever did not cause her any harm, and God made her worthy of Paradise.

The third example is of Hadrat Maryam (Mary) (peace be upon her), who attained to the high rank because she submitted to the severe test to which God had decided to put her.

Apart from Mary no other chaste and righteous girl in the world ever has been put to such a hard test that in spite of being unmarried, she might have been made pregnant miraculously by God's command and informed what service her Lord willed to take from her.

When Hadrat Maryam accepted this decision, and agreed to bear, like a true believer, everything that she inevitably had to bear in order to fulfil Allah's will, then did God exalt her to the noble rank of Sayyidatu an-nisa' fil-Jannah: "Leader of the women in Paradise" (Musnad Ahmad).

Al-Muwatta Hadith
Hadith 54.8

Pictures and Images

Malik related to me from Nafi from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad from A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, that she bought a cushion which had pictures on it.

When the Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, saw it, he stopped at the door and did not enter. She recognised disapproval on his face and said, "Messenger of God, I turn in repentance to God and His Messenger. What have I done wrong?" The Messenger of God, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "What is the meaning of this cushion?" She said, "I bought it for you to sit and recline on."

The Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, said, "Those who make such pictures will be punished on the Day of Rising. It will be said to them, 'Bring to life what you have created'. Then he said, 'The angels do not enter a house in which there are pictures.' "

In Islam belief, it is

In Islam belief, it is allowed or welcomed to illustrate profits and messengers in pictures or idols. Therefore I condemn Chokri Ben Chikha showing is Marry the virgin in this picture. I drought the reasons he was called a Muslim in the article by Paul Bielen in 22-10-2005. Although he is acting with contradiction of his own believe. In Islam we do believe in Marry as we do believe in Jesus, Moses and Mohammad. It is not about joking. This young man is not at all welcomed by Muslims. We don’t support him or any of his type. We will seek the legal procedure to judge him in the Belgian courts. And we condemns the governmental support which he got.

Not was missing in the previous message

In Islam belief, it is[NOT] allowed or welcomed to illustrate Prophets and messengers in pictures or idols. Therefore I condemn Chokri Ben Chikha showing "Marry" the virgin in this picture. I dought the reasons he was called a Muslim in Paul Bielen article in 22-10-2005, although he is acting with contradiction of his own believe. In Islam we do believe in Marry as we do believe in Jesus, Moses and Mohammad. It is not about joking; This young man is not at all welcomed by Muslims. We don’t support him or any of his type. We will seek the legal procedure to judge him in the Belgian courts. And we condemns the governmental support which he got.

explaination for every body

explaination for every body in this site,
the previous message was written by a muslim, but not me,,, all of you know that i call my self a muslim, some of you blame me that i should not talk in the name of all muslims.
but here is the proof that all of us(as muslims) talk on what our religion come with so all of us have one heart together.
thank you brother to support what i was talking about.

what i mean is

i mean by we, the viewpoint of muslims.
for the anonymouse, this life is going to end in one day, so there are some roles and basics we have to respect and take it in account.
because in mind, it is impossible that we come to this life and go without reckoning, and if, who will punish the crimers and killers???
who will take the right from him? nobody? think about it.
example,,,adultery is sin in christian religion as what come in 10th recommendations,,, take a look about christians people over 90% from them practice sex without getting merried(adultery), so who will punish them, did you think about that one time in your life?
the life is going to end, and everybody will take his right.

Please Mr. Bob Doney show

Please Mr. Bob Doney show some respect when you speak to other persons, try to be far from race riot.
im talking to you with arguments, so argue me rationaly, and there is no need for that type of speech.
by the way, from all of my talk you havent answer any of my questions, you just call me by presumptuous, doesnt that show you something?

Rational arguments

try to be far from race riot

I am sorry if you think I have been disrespectful. That was not my intention. I am puzzled by your instruction that I should "try to be far from race riot". I would be interested to know what I have said that leads you think that I am near a race riot.

When I post on a blog I assume that I am speaking just for myself, and that I don't have the right to assume that my opinions are shared by anyone else. So I am always suspicious when someone claims to be speaking for a group of people, particularly if that group happens to be a whole religion.

You said in your first post in this thread that "for clarification, we as muslims consider Ben Chikha same as Theo van Gogh and same as the Danish cartoonists" and further that "And if Theo van Gogh deserve to die, ben Chekha deserve too." My opinion is that it is very unlikely that most Muslims share this view. I am basing this on the Muslims I know and have known. I expect you are basing your opinion on the ones you know. You have your view about it. I have mine.

With regard to the questions you have asked, you draw attention to the fact that I haven't answered them. Here, in brief, are my answers:

as i know Christians consider Jesus as a god, so is it possible that someone mock on him under the cover of demogracy?is that the demogracy?

I'm not sure what you mean by "under the cover of democracy". For most democracies it is a pretty fundamental belief that people should be able to say what they think. And yes, it is possible for people in free and democratic societies to mock Jesus without risk of being arrested, imprisoned or murdered. This is a very old tradition in European culture. A lot of the issues involved can be studied in the story of Socrates, and how he was condemned to death for corrupting the youth of Athens.

it is impossible that we come to this life and go without reckoning, and if, who will punish the crimers and killers???
who will take the right from him? nobody?

There are many people - and I am one of them - who sincerely believe that we do indeed "come to this life and go without reckoning", and that is other human beings who must punish and deter criminals and murderers. It is in fact our responsibility to do so in order to protect the weak and vulnerable.

take a look about christians people over 90% from them practice sex without getting merried(adultery), so who will punish them, did you think about that one time in your life?

Yes, I did think about that, and more than once. I don't believe that having sex without getting married is a crime or is something which should be punished. To be tolerant of other people is a healthy thing, and of course is why so many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucians, and hundreds of other creeds and beliefs come to countries like Britain - just because on the whole we are tolerant.

So, I'm not about to start a race riot, and I am perfectly happy to argue as rationally as I can with you. I do, however, reserve the right to put in the occasional joke.

Bob Doney

well, i think it was a

well, i think it was a misunderstanding from me, and u admit that you had no intention for disrespect(thank you).

now lets have a look at our life, and try(me&you) to answer some questions.
how we come to this life?
why we are come to this life?
what is our mission?
what are the right things?
what are the wrong things?
who is managing this life?who is make it?how he make it?
when we die what will happened?well we disappear and its over?

these are few questions from many and many and many.
can we answer them?

first, lets think rationaly.
oneday a man and a woman have a sex relationship and then the woman get pregnant and then a small child come to life, (me, you, every person come by such way), what is the power let that happened? rationaly unlimit power.
now the child get bigger and bigger and be a man and he have a sex relationship with a woman,etc.......the cycle is continous.
the man now must work and and bring money to live and have fun, rationaly, is that his mission?

if someone hurt this man and he decide to kill him, what will prevent him?
he may put a good plan that no one catch him, he will die in the future and its over.(rationaly this probability is possible).
rationaly, who will take the killed person's right? no body? ok but i just said rationaly.

now when it comes to the power making and managing this life, rationaly its very strong and unlimit power that people cant imagin, and it is ,and for sure, not rationaly that it comes alone and managing itself by itself.

Did we found all answers with rational thinking?
i think not except if you have the answers, but remember (RATIONALY).

tell me what do you say,
and then i will give you likely answers(depending in what come in my religion), and i promise you (all of them are rational).

why no body reply this idiot

why no body reply this idiot muslim.
dont you see that it is amazing that no one could reply him, or what.
i will start to rethink about my believes.

We

we as muslims

Who are "we"?

Bob Doney

We as muslims

for clarification, we as muslims consider Ben Chikha same as Theo van Gogh and same as the Danish cartoonists, you may think that we will not be angry when someone mocking on Mary, it is not true, we believe in Mary but in different way from christians, what we believe in that Mary is the mother of Jesus who come without father by Allah ability.
im not here to explain what we or christians believe in, but to clarify that we are very angry about what Ben Chekha be the image of virgin Mary.
And if Theo van Gogh deserve to die, ben Chekha deserve too.
we as muslim cant make an image or mock on any of our prophets and the Jesus is one of them, as what religion said.
We cant consider mocking of other religion as demogracy, there are some limits must all of as must take in account.
as i know Christians consider Jesus as a god, so is it possible that someone mock on him under the cover of demogracy?is that the demogracy?
think about it and you will find the answer.
any comments you can contact me on my email.

Are you out of your mind. As

Are you out of your mind.

As a Christian, I enjoy the pictures of Mary as often I can see them. If artists for instance wish to alter them in terms of our normal view points, feel free. This is a free world, and all religious demands & limitations are only causing trouble and death. In this game, the muslims are by far the worst stock.

Free world!!! You are dreaming

Some times I think you westerns are just unable to understand the reality. There are three kinds of freedom. Freedom of thinking, Freedom of doing, and Freedom from punishement. The three types are not there, but we have some of each. Freedom of thinking is considered the most problem in the world. Because of limited knowledge, lazyness, and propaganda. For the freedom of doing, actually that depends on the existence of thes contraints. For example: If your hands are free then you can move them and you can kill or heal. If they are tighted with a robe or something, then you are not free to do that. You cannot have freedom in moving your blood in your body in reverse. And you cannot go in the wall. These are contraints we still don't know how to remove. And the freedom of doing is just dependent on our knowledge. For example you cannot fly like birds. Then you are not free to do what you could like to do. For the freedom from punishment, you actually cannot know about that. You can know about what will happen if you put your finger on fire, but What consequences can happen if you beat your cat? You think there nothing happened to people, but simpley, you cannot know. Because you cannot talk about what you don't see, you just can talk about what you observe. Then how can you say that we are in the free world? Actually you are just a liar who believed other liars or trying to make propaganda, and you are the result of the political efforts to make you believe in that without thinking in reality. You better go and think and be a human.
Honest people are everywhere, and they are converting to islam every minute. If you think you can avoid people from seeing the truth, you actually just like satan, and will be believed just like dishonest people who will never accept truth.

PROPHET MUHAMMAD AND VIRGIN MARY (PEACE BE UPON THEM)

This is a world gone mad. When the pure and pristine characters of the two most important human beings this world has seen are villified and denigrated than the human race is no more worthy of being called human beings.
Muhammad (PBUH) has by every account in history only received praise for his revolution of turning a most despicable people into a people with a purpose and high morality.
The mother of Jesus (PBUH), Mary is spoken of in the Holy Qur'an with such reverance and respect that she has attained the pre-eminent position of the woman who will first be led by God, Almighty into the everlasting bliss of paradise.
So if any of the prophets of God or His chosen servants are depicted in a bad light, God will surely turn His Anger on people who carry out these disgusting and dastardly depiction of these great human beings.
To all the people choosing this villification of God's chosen people, be warned, God is watching and will bring untold misery for the sensationalism we declare as our democratic right. Our democratic rights are only possible because of these great human beings, God mercifully sent to us.
Let us repent sincerely and stop making the people of different cultural backgrounds miserable. Villifying these pristine personages in any form makes us worst than animals. We will return to God and let us not seek God's punishing justice, for the mockery we make of His Wisdom when He chose these most compassionate human beings, who freed all of us from the bondage of ignorance.
I sincerely hope that sanity will prevail and the sensational madness will be ended with beautiful words for the greatest human beings who trod this world.

Mr. Representative Muslim, you have a favorite Christianity

..that is actually false Christianity. That is understandable seeing you were a Muslim.

The speech you grew up in (non-creatng speech/anti-Christ, the same speech all human beings grow up in) appeals to your own heart in decrying a depiction of "great human beings" in some fashion that should anger them if they were you --i.e. they seem to you , even in paradise, to have the same heart as you do now.

That's the problem.

In the only reality, true Christianity, Jesus Christ is the only Word of God, He speaks to those He chooses, He IS His Word/Creating Speech. When He Speaks to those who are His chosen, they are re-created as new creatures with new hearts, new spirits, new minds (Him as our Speech) and therefore the soul is saved.

Ezekiel 36:25-28 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses and from all your idols will I cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and keep mine ordinances, and ye shall do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned; but the spiritual discerns all things, and *he* is discerned of no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, who shall instruct him? But *we* have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:17 So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new:

So you see, the problem is that in false Christianity and in all false religion, to include Islam, everyone stays the same --even in 'paradise'. They take the same heart with them, the same mind, the same "wisdom". Look at that --it turns out that 'paradise' is just like here except no emotional negatives in the heart you have here. Otherwise, there would be no advertisement of 'paradise' that you could understand now as you are in order to supposedly 'buy' it by 'doing' stuff. All those idols and such are just there to help out with visual stimulus of the advertisment. What new birth? What Creating Word of God? How is that god greater than your own mind and heart now if you perfectly understand his (or her) 'paradise' already?

And what does God say of the humn heart as it is before new birth?

Matthew 15:18-20 but the things which go forth out of the mouth come out of the heart, and those defile man. For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witnessings, blasphemies; these are the things which defile man; but the eating with unwashen hands does not defile man.

Yet it is that very heart that your speech says ends up in 'paradise' --and 'paradise' is defined by speech that is in that heart to be that place where that heart gets whatever it wants.

So it is with all false religion: it is dependent on you staying the same in order to understand it --and 'use it' to get to 'paradise' with the same heart out of which comes murders, thefts, adulteries ...all evil and wickedness. You are no different than a false Christian to be a true Muslim: one who has yet to be born again in Jesus Christ/Word of God. That is the only morality.

You must be born again as real, literal new creation in Jesus Christ or you will end in the lake of eternal fire.

Heaven and the lake of eternal fire will not be full of identical creatures in two different places. Heaven is being changed into a new heaven (as one would expect with a God Who IS Creating Speech ..He creates all the time (there is always enough: the supposed limited resources those not born again fights and scratches for 'their share' are not limited at all) ) that will be full of real, literal new creations in Jesus Christ. The lake of eternal fire will be full of all those not born again in Jesus Christ and who loved the speech they grew up in --against God as Word--because their speech through them falsely claimed their speech, which could create nothing and thus they had to have the same heart mind and speech they already have got to understand it, was God.

If you would like to hear more, we can do this here, there or anywhere God allows, any time God allows it. That would of course, do away with your favourite caricature of Christianity which is in favor of the same speech you grew up and the same heart you've always had.

John 14:16,17 And I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you.

In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen

Letter to De Morgen

I sent this letter translated from my English to De Morgen, after their coverage of the protests against the play. I don't think it was published, so here is the text for a wider public.

Geachte Redactie,

Uw bewering dat zij die protesteren tegen het stuk Onze Lieve Vrouw van Vlaanderen wortels hebben in het fascisme beantwoordt niet aan het gewoonlijk hoge niveau van de Vlaamse journalistiek.

De overgrote meerderheid van de aanwezigen waren katholieken die bezwaar maken tegen godslasterlijke voorstellingen van Onze Lieve Vrouw. Daar zowel Onze Lieve Vrouw als Onze Heer joods waren, is het onmogelijk voor katholieken om antisemitisch te zijn. Niettemin het stuk zelf herhaalt ongelukkig genoeg verfoeilijke antisemitische sentimenten die men in de immigrantengemeenschappen van Brussel hoort (het theater zegt een ‘open geest’ te hebben – open voor de taal van de goot). Het is hoogst onwaarschijnlijk dat extreem rechtse elementen tegen een stuk als dit zullen demonstreren. Fascisten en nazi’s bidden de Rozenkrans niet.

Als u spreekt over afzonderlijke deelnemers: ik ben Engels en katholiek. Vijftig jaar geleden was iedereen dankbaar dat mijn land het gevecht tegen het Europese fascisme leidde. Maar honderd jaar geleden vluchtte mijn familie naar het katholieke Vlaanderen om aan vervolging in Engeland te ontkomen. Omdat Vlaanderen toen het katholicisme in Engeland beschermde, zal ik alles doen wat ik kan om het katholicisme van vandaag in Vlaanderen te verdedigen. Het is een groots erfgoed; verkwansel het niet. Mijn vrouw is Oostenrijkse en ontelbare leden van de familie van haar eerste (joodse) echtgenoot kwamen om in de nazi-concentratiekampen. Uw artikel spreekt ook over aartsbisschop Lefebvre. Zijn vader was lid van het verzet; hij stierf in een Duitse gevangenis na wreed te zijn gemarteld.

Tot zover uw beweringen.

Met vriendelijke groet, Hoogachtend

Dear Editor

Your claims that the protesters against the play, "Our Lady of Flanders" have roots in fascism is not consistent with the usually high standards of Flemish journalism.

The vast majority of people present were Catholics who object to the blasphemous portrayal of Our Lady. As both Our Lady and Our Lord were Jewish, it is impossible for Catholics to be anti-semitic. However, the play itself unfortunately repeats odious anti-semitic sentiments heard in the immigrant communities in Brussels (the theatre claims to have an "open spirit"- open to the language of the gutter). It is hardly likely that extreme right-wingers would demonstrate against such a play. Fascists and nazis do not pray the Rosary.

If you are talking about individuals who took part, I am English and Catholic. Fifty years ago, we should all be grateful that my nation led the fight against European fascism. But four hundred years ago my family took refuge in Catholic Flanders from persecution in England. As Flanders then protected Catholicism in England, I will do all I can to defend Catholicism in Flanders today. It is a great inheritance; do not squander it. My wife is Austrian and numerous of her first husband's Jewish family died in Nazi concentration camps. Also your article speaks of Archbishop Lefebvre. His father was a member of the resistance, who died in a German prison after being brutally tortured.

So much for your claims.

Yours sincerely

Better dead than muslim

I piss on Chokri Ben Chikha. He thinks it's funny that arabs and old poles hate Jews? You know what they have in common?

IGNORANCE.

The same ignorance that breeds plague. Poles were brainwashed, AND NOW THEY ARE FREE OF COMMUNISM AND NAZISM AND JEWS LIVE IN THEIR MIDST AND THE POLISH CHILDREN ARENT BEING COOKED INTO MATZOS / sarcasm off.

If the arabs want to live in their brainwashed 13th century deathcult, THEN LET THEM STAY THERE.

Get out of Europe, get out of America.

What do muslims produce? aside from oil, NOTHING BUT VIOLENCE AND DEATH.

200 million Arab muslims can't live with 6 million Jews and Israel in their midst? Then "F" the muslisms: AND THE WORLD SHOULDN"T HAVE TO LIVE WITH ANY MUSLIMS IN OUR MIDST.

Let him do his stupid play IN A TENT IN NORTH AFRICA AND SEE WHO GIVES A SHIITE!

The delivery aside, this

The delivery aside, this poster's anger is something this American understands. Threatening someone with death over their words or an image is the real heresy to me. Feeling that your religion is so tenuous that you must punish the more vocal nonbelievers with death is proof of how little faith you really have, and how much of a coward you really are.

Feeling that violent retribution is just punishment against artists and writers is tantamount to indicting your own "religious" beliefs as the worthless fraud that they are.

Freedom is a sweet and beautiful thing, too bad these pedantic theocrats are abusing their own freedom to protest, by wrongfully threatening anyone who practices the freedom to speak and express themselves.

Dear, being a muslim but not

Dear, being a muslim but not arab, i M gree with you that lot of stuf is based on ignorance.say for example your language firstly has made me feel sorry for the gentleman who served for a noble cause for humanity, if really he did, to whom you claim to be the son.what relation your language has with this?what is the meaning of ignorance? if u dont know yet,read your letter again.

I am a Jew. Jews are

I am a Jew. Jews are admonished not to sit with scorners.
Today I sat at a meal where the elderly woman sitting across from me had a number tattooed on her forearm. I had not noticed it before as she usually wears long sleeves even in summer. I knew she had been in a concentration camp in her youth.
Does the Ministry of Culture hope to to recruit new Eichmanns or just provide positive support for the North Africans who are blatantly antisemitic?
Laughing has always been a very powerful tool in gaining support.

I wish I could say that in

I wish I could say that in the USA the government didn't waste the taxpayers' money by subsidising *art*.

The National Endowment for the Arts in the USA has an annual budget around $150M.