Danish Paper Apologizes. Dutch Cartoon on Its Way
From the desk of Hjörtur J. Guðmundsson on Tue, 2006-01-31 12:59
An article by Hjörtur Gudmundsson (with Filip van Laenen and Paul Belien)
Carsten Juste, the editor of Jyllands-Posten, has apologized on behalf of his newspaper for offending Muslims by publishing twelve Muhammad cartoons last September (see them here, halfway the page). Previously (as in his open letter to the Saudis) Mr Juste had only “regretted” it, without using the word “apology.” Mr Juste emphasizes, however, that he apologizes for offending people, but not for publishing the cartoons. He explains that for the sake of freedom of expression he cannot apologize for publishing them. He says that Jyllands-Posten has not changed its position on the publication as such. “We believe that if we would go out and apologize [for the publication] then the dictators in the Middle East would decide what we should publish in our newspaper. That is of course totally unacceptable,” Juste told the Danish news agency Ritzau.
In an editorial, published in Jyllands-Posten yesterday evening, the editor writes:
“In our opinion the 12 cartoons were moderate and not intended to be insulting. They did not go against Danish laws, but have evidently offended many Muslims, for which we apologize. Meanwhile a couple of offending cartoons have circulated in the Muslim world which were never published in Jyllands-Posten and which we would never have published if they had been offered to us. We would have dismissed them on the grounds that they breached our ethical limits.”
Mr Juste added that Jyllands-Posten prides itself on having high ethical standards. He said that therefore it was especially tragic that those additional cartoons are being presented as if they have something to do with the newspaper.
As The Brussels Journal reported earlier radical Danish Muslim organizations toured the Arab world three weeks ago and themselves added three additional pictures to the original twelve. One of them shows Muhammad as a pedophile demon, another the prophet with a pigsnout, while the third one depicts a praying Muslim being raped by a dog. These pictures had been intentionally added by Muslim radicals in order to incite antipathy towards Denmark, or, as they themselves put it, to “give an insight in how hateful the atmosphere in Denmark is towards Muslims.” Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen commented that he was “speechless” at such behaviour from “people whom we have given the right to live in Denmark.”
Meanwhile former US President Bill Clinton has condemned the publication of the (twelve original) cartoons at a conference in Qatar. He called them “appalling” and “totally outrageous” and warned of rising anti-Islamic prejudice in Europe, which he compared to Europe’s historic anti-Semitism. Mr Clinton was the American president who spent his time in the Oval Office smoking cigars which he had first placed in peculiar locations.
Norway
Yesterday Muslim outrage over the cartoons led to an armed raid on the EU offices in Gaza. Terrorist groups threatened Scandinavian officials and demanded that they leave Palestine at once, despite the EU’s donation of $338 million per year to Palestine, a donation which includes money from Danish taxpayers. All over Palestine Danish and Norwegians flags have been burned in protest against the publication of the cartoons. In addition to Jyllands-Posten three Norwegian papers also published the cartoons: Magazinet, Aftenposten and Dagbladet.
While the pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli Norwegian government was quick to apologize, even before apologies were demanded, this has not prevented Muslims from boycotting Norwegian products. Meanwhile Magazinet journalist Vebjørn Selbekk has already received more than twenty death threats. Mr Selbekk and his family are now under police protection.
Unlike the Norwegian government, Per Edgar Kokkvold of the Norwegian press association Norsk Presseforbund defended the right of Magazinet and the other papers to publish the cartoons. Anne Lene Dale Sandsten, the spokesperson of the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, however, declared that the ministry never apologized for the publication of the cartoons, but only for the unrest they have caused. Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre claims that “since no leading Norwegian paper has published the cartoons” the Norwegian press has shown its sense of responsibility. However, though Magazinet is a small Christian paper, Aftenposten is Norway’s second largest paper and its leading quality newspaper, while Dagbladet is the third largest paper in the country, read by a quarter of the Norwegian adult population.
Yesterday Yasser Najjar, the Palestinian ambassador to Oslo, said that those who published the cartoons were asking for a “war of civilizations.” He said that freedom of speech does not allow one to “insult 1.3 billion Muslims.” The cartoons, he said, are not the expression of an opinion but pure provocation. “Our Prophet cannot be humiliated. I do not believe a Muslim has ever said anything negative about Christianity or Jesus Christ.”
Media commentator Henrik Færevåg, however, declared that Norway should reconsider its financial aid to Palestine. The Norwegians have been “stupid idiots” to give more subsidies to Palestine than Saudi Arabia, he said. If the Palestinians cannot tolerate Norway’s freedom of speech they should not accept its money either.
Though the twelve Muhammad cartoons are pretty mild, except perhaps for two of them (which are also mild by Western standards), Muslims are offended by the simple fact of depicting their prophet. According to Islam it is blasphemy to draw Muhammad. Nevertheless the Mohammed Image Archive shows many depictions of the prophet throughout history, some of them apparently made by Muslims.
The Netherlands
In an article in the Amsterdam newspaper De Volkskrant today Dutch cartoonists admit that they do not depict Muhammad out of fear for violent retaliations. “It is a kind of self-censorship,” Stefan Verwey admits. “I have large windows and would rather keep them intact,” says Peter de Wit, while Joep Bertrams concedes. “It causes a lot of problems. Why throw oil on the fire?”
Other cartoonists, however, who have asked to remain anonymous, think that Western artist should not allow themselves to be intimidated and propose an international “Draw Muhammad Week.” Next month a book will be out in the Netherlands which contains a cartoon by Gregorius Nekschot [a pseudonym] of the prophet “in a compromising pose” with his child-wife Aisha.
Will the Netherlands soon be on the Muslims’ boycott list as well? And will Belgium, Germany, Britain and the United States because bloggers in these countries are republishing the Jyllands-Posten cartoons, as well as other pictures of Muhammad?
More on the Cartoon Case (see links at end of article)
Update:
Dutch Police Arrests Cartoonist, 16 May 2008
Yep, I intend to take out a
Submitted by mistaken4u on Fri, 2006-02-17 18:40.
Yep, I intend to take out a whole bunch of people when I die (hopefully not now!!! I'm not done corrupting people!!!). Believe me, I'll take out all the suckers out there and painfully kill them. Damn religion!! Damn it all!!!! Except for xmas.. Presents!!! Lots of them too!! Why don't people want to celebrate xmas? Presents are great!!!!
All Hail... ME!!!
If I get dragged away for
Submitted by mistaken4u on Fri, 2006-02-17 18:22.
If I get dragged away for not worshipping (which I don't to.. Except for maybe Satan...jk) I would rather kill myself that following orders out of a book!!! Shame that people can't just live in peace and just leave everyone alone. Thats how I live!!! And its great!! (Except for the odd murder of a teacher cuz they gave me a bad grade....kidding, I'm not that mean ;))
To Mistaken4u
Submitted by A New Believer on Fri, 2006-02-17 18:34.
I know exactly what you mean.. believe me! *smile and wink* but when I kill myself as they are dragging me away.. believe me I intend to take them with me, they will of course descend into their hell.. because I am going to be chanting MY religion the whole time. now that will drive them crazy! hehehe!
Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!
Religion has always made
Submitted by mistaken4u on Fri, 2006-02-17 17:33.
Religion has always made people hate other people. I find that stupid, stop arguing over religion and get a life. Life isn't all about religion maybe one day people will realize this and shut up about it
Re: religion has always made
Submitted by A New Believer on Fri, 2006-02-17 18:13.
Yes religion has always made people hate each other.. but the whole point is that THEY are trying to shove THEIR religion down all our throats, and if everyone sits back and lets them; mayhaps one day as you are just minding your own business getting a life as you say. You will have your door kicked in and the sharia police willbe there to arrest you and drag you away for NOT worshipping!
Odin be Praised! Baldur Save Us!
armagdon
Submitted by peace on Sat, 2006-02-11 20:16.
u all can go ask jewsih rabis about armagdon
to this fool blukate
Submitted by peace on Sat, 2006-02-11 20:13.
to this foolish blukat..you insist to show not only you rfoolishness but also your ignorance to the end .
if u say muslims worship allah which is not god of jews and christians.if u mean that christians worship the christ and the cross..that is ok...as muslims worship the god of the christ himself mr fool.
do u know jews call god Hashem and hashem is an arabic name used as names for males .
for anyone here who want to listen and have mind,
muslism worship the god of the universe.whatever his name is allah or hashem .
muslims call ahhal by othe r names whcih allah used in quran to refer himself such as the most mercifull, the most forgiver , the most compassionate..
of course u mr fool has no mind to understand or even comprehend such thing as u have blind heart an d mind
To Sobieski From a Canadian Muslim
Submitted by Imran Patel on Wed, 2006-02-08 08:45.
Your saying that British Muslims are unemployed, dont have a decent way of life and are usually cab drivers. Well your wrong. My uncle and cousins in the UK have had a successful business for a long time. They have leather factories in the UK and stores also. They ship mangoes from India themselves and sell them in the UK. They are very rich and prosperous people. And its not just them. Most of my other relatives who moved from India not the Middle-East to India are very prosperous with a few acceptions. I think you have got your facts wrong about the unemployment rate in the UK. More and more jobs are being taken by the muslims and are equally shared with the others in the country. Also, to the others. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. And the speed has boosted since 9/11 and is still going at a faster then usual pace. Im sorry but the -----'s plan did not go as planned. The muslim numbers are increasing because more and more people are researching on the our religion. And after realising that it is the most suited and best religion will they join. They dont just go and pick any from a list. I will be posting again as I read through the comments.
I just remembered. It think this was asked by Anonomous11,
Maybe you can help clear something up for me,
why are Christians - or people of any non-Muslim denomination for that matter - expected to observe the Muslim commandment - for lack of a better word - that you cannot depict the prophet?
Why should WE adhere to Muslim doctrine and tradition? It seems to me that you should be equally outraged to see us eating pork, drinking, or neglecting to pray 5 times a day and yet that does not seem to be the case. I'm honestly wondering why and I hope you can clarify this for me and others.
We are outraged by the number of people eating pork including those muslims who do not know they are. This is the reason we are trying to increase awareness to the muslims about pork. We only express the fact of praying 5 times daily to muslims as we are told. And we try to introduce people to Islam. And this is not the Muslim Commandment. The rejection of eating pork is stated in the Torah for the Jews and also cirtain sections of the Bibal (for instance by Michael...and so on...I still dont understand that concept but I will try to)...it is your choice if you want to be ignorant and eat it. Atleast the Jews acknoledge that eating Pork is not right. But the Christians, they by pass that part not carring at all and have totally forgotten bout it as time went by. The depiction of the prophet is forbidden because it will lead to Idolatry as it had done in the past. But the fact that you are not only depicting him(which is a total false image since you dont even know how he looked like) but the major impact was you were insulting him therefore insulting the majority of teh billions of Muslims in the world. We are just requesting you to respect our doctrine and tradition. And by not feeding students in school products with pork is not gonna hurt the students. It will just allow the Muslims to eat safely without worry. The non-Muslims dont have any worries anyway. I hope this cleared up things for you. And these are just my opinions and facts that I know. You can reject them if you like. Noone is stopping you.
Ignorance is pork
Submitted by Bob Doney on Sun, 2006-02-12 00:12.
it is your choice if you want to be ignorant and eat it
Why is it ignorant to eat pork? I knew lots of people who died from smoking. I knew a few people who died in road accidents. I don't know of anyone who died from eating pork.
Many Muslim countries have appalling road safety records. Might be better to concentrate on that rather than the pork. We have fridges and food hygiene regulations nowadays.
Bob Doney
Muslims are intolerant
Submitted by Mike Taylor on Mon, 2006-02-06 16:03.
Why should any non-muslims care if they commit blasphemy as it is described in the quran?
According to the quran, ALL christians commit blasphemy because they worship Jesus. Muslims say that's blasphemy because the quran says there is no God but "Allah". Therefore, according to the quran, if you follow the teachings of the Bible you believe Jesus is God. The quran teaches that is blasphemy.
Why do we have to tip toe around because a bunch of wild eyed, blood thirsty muslims might get offended?
If they don't like our cartoons, they don't have to read our newspapers. It's that simple. They can go on reading their islamic rags that pander to their hyper sensitivities, illusions about themselves and their fanatical religious beliefs.
The rest of us will NOT submit to their religion. NEVER.
Islam is evil. They need to get with the program and ditch the satanic verses of the quran. There is not one redeeming word in the quran. It's a recipe for hatred and violence.
Islam is Comprehensive
Submitted by W S Gondal on Wed, 2006-02-08 06:34.
My friend Mike, first of all let me tell you one thing that Holy Quran is no where mentioning for any group of followers commiting, " Blasphemy ". I don't want to convince you that you go and open Holy Quran and read such and such verse. No, you need not to, but answer my one question that " Have we ( Muslims ) ever mentioned any where a bad language for the religion Christianity or Jews, or your Holy book BIBLE ". I am sure if you start searching right from today to prove , you may not find even a single comment on this.
Now I tell you the reason also, When Islam started spreading. It started with the soft speaches, debates and small conferences. By that time in Arabs all were Christians and Jews, so we ( Muslims ) were told through our book ( Holy Quran ) that they are the followers of the Messenger Hazrat Esaa A I ( Jesus Christ ), and Hazrat Esaa A I ( Jesus Christ ) was as respectable for Muslims as others Messengers from Allah ( God ).
So from that day when Islam was revealed on earth Hazrat Esaa A I ( Jesus Christ ) and their follwers are respectable for us, but same time in Holy Quran mentioned that teach them the right path and tell them that Hazrat Esaa A I ( Jesus Christ )is not the son of Allah but the Messenger and son of Hazrat Maryam A I ( Maria ).
So this is the same Quran that mention such thing a lot of time, So please my friend keep this thing in mind that Islam is comprehensive and told us about a lot of things but in beautiful and graceful manners.
Islam is BLASPHEMY
Submitted by Mike Taylor on Sat, 2006-02-04 23:19.
Mohammed was a FALSE prophet, therefore the faith that was built upon his writing (quran) is blasphemy. Why would a true prophet commit murder? Mohammed did. Why would a true prophet make war? Mohammed did. Islam is lies... the quran is the Devil's work. Period. End of story.
to all people
Submitted by peace on Sat, 2006-02-11 20:48.
Allah (God)
Islam is the complete submission and obedience to Allah (God). The name Allah (God) in Islam never refers to Muhammad (peace be upon him), as many Christians may think; Allah is the personal name of God.
What do Muslims believe about Allah?
1. He is the one God, Who has no partner.
2. Nothing is like Him. He is the Creator, not created, nor a part of His creation.
3. He is All-Powerful, absolutely Just.
4. There is no other entity in the entire universe worthy of worship besides Him.
5. He is First, Last, and Everlasting; He was when nothing was, and will be when nothing else remains.
6. He is the All-Knowing, and All-Merciful,the Supreme, the Sovereign.
7. It is only He Who is capable of granting life to anything.
8. He sent His Messengers (peace be upon them) to guide all of mankind.
9. He sent Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the last Prophet and Messenger for all mankind.
10. His book is the Holy Qur'an, the only authentic revealed book in the world that has been kept without change.
11. Allah knows what is in our hearts.
to mike
Submitted by peace on Sat, 2006-02-11 20:20.
so now u relieved yourself..
ok as u like.
Cartoons
Submitted by Prophet Mohammed (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 21:09.
I wrote the Quran 1300 years ago. Times change! I'm hip now. I cheat on my 72 wives, smoke dope, subscribe to over 1000 porn web sites and love to go to Vegas. Things were different 1300 years ago. I implemented the veil because I was sick and tired of looking at my wives rotten teeth... and their breath... arghhhhhh... NASTY We didn't have Tic Tacs back then. I would have killed for a pack of Dentyn chewing gum. As for clothes, personally I like to see women wear a skimpy tube top. In fact, I like wearing them myself. Did I mention that you can frequently find me shopping at Victoria's Secret (but I still have trouble finding my size)? Next time you are there and you smell something foul near the dressing rooms... that could be me in there! Peace be upon you!
Cartoons
Submitted by Prophet Mohammed (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 21:07.
I wrote the Quran 1300 years ago. Times change! I'm hip now. I cheat on my 72 wives, smoke dope, subscribe to over 1000 porn web sites and love to go to Vegas. Things were different 1300 years ago. I implemented the veil because I was sick and tired of looking at my wives rotten teeth... and their breath... arghhhhhh... NASTY We didn't have Tic Tacs back then. I would have killed for a pack of Dentyn chewing gum. As for clothes, personally I like to see women wear a skimpy tube top. In fact, I like wearing them myself. Did I mention that you can frequently find me shopping at Victoria's Secret (but I still have trouble finding my size)? Next time you are there and you smell something foul near the dressing rooms... that could be me in there! Peace be upon you!
All praise the Sandmonkey
Submitted by Lars (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 21:35.
I would like to take the time to thank all the contributions in this forum, many are respectful others are not, some points are good, some are bad.....but it is all free speech. I stumbled upon a internet blog which really reflects my opinions about this conflict. God bless all religions
http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/
All praise the Sandmonkey.
the bbc
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 20:23.
The bbc news online asking for comments regarding the cartoons???
[How can I comment on the cartoons when the BBC is indulging in self censorship and does not display the cartoons - for me to form an opinion?
As a UK citizen I never thought the BBC would act so timidly your self censorship is hypocritical and is only matched in its absurdity by asking viewers for an opinion on something that you ban them from seeing in the first place. What is the BBC scared of – I challenge you to publish or loose your credibility.]
BBC
Submitted by Bob Doney on Mon, 2006-02-06 16:12.
The bbc news online asking for comments regarding the cartoons
I've tried to post many times on the Beeb's forums, and got a very low strike rate. Was it something I said?
I did have Edwina Curry read out one of my emails on her late night Radio 5 show though!! She said I was "naughty". Ooer... takes one to know one.
Bob Doney
Great Cartoons at Cox and Forkum
Submitted by Molly (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 19:59.
Great site for editorial cartoons (yes, even poking fun at you extremist Islam fanatics)! Check out the first one poking fun at the Islamic image of today. They have brought this upon themselves, especially after their hissy fit about the Danish cartoons.
They will never, ever take away the freedom of speech, freedom of press, and yes, even freedom for cartoons!!! FREEDOM
www.coxandforkum.com
"They will never, ever take
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 20:08.
"They will never, ever take away the freedom of speech, freedom of press, and yes, even freedom for cartoons!!! FREEDOM"
I loved you in "Braveheart". ;)
Those cartoonists seem pretty talented by the way.
Freedom of Speech and Respect
Submitted by Naveed Naz (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 03:03.
I believe that whilst it is all good to support freedom of speech, we must not lose sight of what purpose freedom of speech serves. Freedom of speech ensures that anyone can speak his/her opinion and be heard. Hence, everyone opinion is RESPECTED. Even if we disagree with something, we RESPECT that a person has a different opinion.
Freedom of Speech in cases like these cartoons, are just a form of blatant DISRESPECT towards muslims in the community. Infact, in a way it is inciting religious hatred.
On the one hand, the western world is quick to point out that it doesnt want Islamophobia to spread, on the other hand acts like these are only going to help in distancing and alienating muslims further from the community.
I think this is the issue at which the debate should be focused as this is what the concrete and lasting effect of it would be.
er, no.
Submitted by Adriane (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 07:48.
My opinion is that all Muslims living in Europe, who were born on a Tuesday, should pay a special tax for the purpose of providing free spinach flavored ice cream, which is known to cure cancer in people who additionaly stimulate their immune system by kissing their pet iguanas.
Now while others of you may scoff, Naveed Naz, at least, will respect my opinion.
CARTOON NEWSFLASH
Submitted by truth serum on Wed, 2006-02-01 19:29.
Apparently Europian Newspapers are finally coming out in support of Jyllands-Posten FINALLY! Spain, Italy, Germany and even France have printed them!
Italy and Spain publish some Muhammad cartoons also
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009993.php#comments
Boycott Germany! Die Welt reprints some of the Muhammad cartoons
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009992.php#comments
French Daily Publishes Prophet Mohammed's Cartoons
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009988.php#comments
Muslims: Please Leave the West
Submitted by gordon (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 15:52.
To all muslims that are so offended by western culture, PLEASE LEAVE.
Go and live where you wont be outraged by the western infidels.
LEAVE THE WEST. GO BACK TO YOUR ISLAMIC COUNTRIES. Why are you here? You don't want us, we certainly don't want you.
Western society can get along much better without you. History has proven this! We have NEVER NEEDED YOU!
You come here with nothing and demand everything. You offer us NOTHING but violence, rage, crime and constant complaints about our way of life.
We are paying taxes to support people who hate us. Nobody wants this, or you, anymore. Please get as far as away humanly possible.
Go back to your deserts and your car bombings and hotel bombings and video beheadings and kidnappings and "honor" killings and your so-called sharia law... PLEASE LEAVE NOW.
GTFO!!
to mr gorden
Submitted by islamisperfect (not verified) on Fri, 2006-02-03 12:01.
Sureeee the west dont need us cuz the west is too wicked to need us n truly the history has prooved it u r right :) u see how the wet stole australian n america from its orignal ppl n the history knows how the west treated those poor aboriginals>>>>>>
The wicked west defently rnt in need of islaam thankk GOD for dat n thanx for mentining ur great history lol I wonder how much u love hitler n his kind cuz that is ur west n as far as telling us muslims that we bring nothing to u than think abt that once again because we do bring one of the most important thing that the west greatly lacks n that is morals , n as far as tellingt us to get out of the west once again the east the west the north n south belongs to ALMIGHTY GOD so who r u to tell us to leave???????? Yoooo we wont leave never n if u got the gutstry kicking us out ))))))))))) <<<<<<<<
no offence to the decent westerners peace
from nermin to Mr Hitler (gordon)
Submitted by nermin on Wed, 2006-02-01 16:14.
Hello Mr Hitler , you really sounded like him ..i wonder is genocide and racial discrimination is present in your genes..sure it is ..because you are the people who burned the jews and you who had black history of supporting apartheid in south Africa and you are the white who eradicate the native people of America and you are the one who launched crusade wars for over 400 years by the support of the corrupted church and its men…to kill both jews and muslims who lives away away from your western countries…I really feel pity for you..with all that balcknesss inside your heart how can you live …..you can ask American about the contribution of tehmuslims and arabs now in its life and how one of them called ahmed zewl own the nobel prize alone in chemistry .you can go to UK or france and see that half doctors thee are arabs or muslims..wake up…ex president clintion said yesterday that attck against muslims and islam reminds him of anti-Semitism against jews. I ask you do you dare to publish cartons about those who worship cows .do you..of course not because your black heart hate and aim to hurt only muslims and islam with total ignorance. you are brain wshed by your media. Can you reply to me of course not
Flawed logic nermin...
Submitted by Proudly serving in Iraq.... (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 17:32.
He wants all muslims out of his country and you compare him to hitler? he didn't say kill all muslims, he just said go home. but since you are muslim and they are by nature easily offended when we tell you to get out of our country you respond by comparing us to hitler while you bomb our innocent citizins.
this is what the muslims encourage and preach to their people every day. death to the infidels, specifically non-believers who offend us.
to shamly serving in iraq from nermin
Submitted by nermin on Wed, 2006-02-01 17:45.
and what you are proud of Mr proudly serving in iraq...proud taht you kill there innocent peopel who has no official army .what are you doing there..what are you doing in that land and people you hate most..why you donot get out first from our countries to get from yours....i heard that american soldiers in iraq suffer from psychological disturbances.. you are proud of being miles away from your homeland..waht are you doing in that desert you mock..telll me or you canpay your life to kill as much number as you can from muslims......islam increase in europe not by those who work there but th enative white inhabitant..wake up or your are crazy war
I'm not in the military....
Submitted by Proudly serving in Iraq.... (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:12.
I never said I was a soldier. I'm a civilian construction worker. I help build schools, hospitals, and other public facilities here for the iraqi's. but muslims are killing my co-workers even though i'm trying to help them.
muslims and the nobel prize.....
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 16:56.
The nobel prize has been around since 1901 and only THREE muslims have won it. There are more american WOMEN that have won the nobel prize than all the muslim nobel prize winners combined. and america has only been around for a few hundred years.
so winning the nobel prize isn't all that impressive. tell us what else muslims have done for the world? other than bombing innocent people.
And what have u done apart
Submitted by Anonymous3 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 17:38.
And what have u done apart from steeling our resourses and occupying our countries for decades. For my fellow muslims, come on stop argueing, we dont have to defend ourselves the journal apologised, the primeminister apologised and we got what we wanted. These people have respect for nothing, they dont get what we mean, they do and say whatever they want in the name of dimocracy and free speech.They change and switch their religious believes according to their will. By the way, iam lost now do you have divorce or no in your religion? your churchs are accepting gay marriage now isnt it?
Doctors
Submitted by Bob Doney on Wed, 2006-02-01 16:22.
you can go to UK or france and see that half doctors thee are arabs or muslims
Can you provide a source or evidence for this statement?
Bob Doney
to Mr Bob from nermin
Submitted by nermin on Wed, 2006-02-01 17:24.
i have been in Uk mr Bob , please go and ask ..go kings collage hospital and see the percent of british doctors there ,then tell me
UK doctors
Submitted by Bob Doney on Wed, 2006-02-01 17:59.
go kings collage hospital and see the percent of british doctors there ,then tell me
I'm very pleased that you have been to the UK, Nermin. I am also pleased that you know Kings College Hospital, which is 50 yards from where my son used to live and where my grandson was born. However, I have to tell you that Kings College Hospital is not typical of Britain as a whole. And although a lot of the doctors there are of foreign origin, many of them are Chinese, Indian (some will be Muslim, but others will be Hindu, Sikh etc), or from other European countries and other non-Muslim, non-Arab parts of the world.
Your claim is that half of the doctors in Britain are Muslim or Arab. I find that improbable, and I asked what evidence you could provide for it. I suspect that you can't. And that you can't for a lot of the other wild generalisations you have made on this site in the last few days.
I'm sorry if this is all a bit boring and pedantic, but sometimes that's the only way to get at the truth of things.
Bob Doney
fine Mr Bob from nermin
Submitted by nermin on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:08.
at least you now had to admitt that majority of doctors in UK are non british..thi s is enough for me....i know the rest...why kings colege is non typical british hospital..i staht because i only mentioned it...and how doyou know which one i have inmind...there is one in east dulich ..south east london too..and others
Hospital admission
Submitted by Bob Doney on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:43.
at least you now had to admitt that majority of doctors in UK are non british..thi s is enough for me....i know the rest...why kings colege is non typical british hospital..i staht because i only mentioned it...and how doyou know which one i have inmind...there is one in east dulich
I didn't "admit" that the majority of doctors in the UK are non-British, because I don't know. I think it's unlikely. You haven't provided any evidence.
Funnily enough my son moved from next door to Kings College Hospital to East Dulwich. Are you following him around?
The London teaching hospitals are not typical, and are more likely to attract doctors from around the world. And hospitals are more likely to employ foreign doctors than, say, local family practitioners.
Bob Doney
Oh dear
Submitted by Sobieski (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 17:50.
Nermin, your assertion that Muslims command the heights of European professions is, frankly, absurd. You have provided no evidence to back this beyond "go ask", which is frankly not good enough.
Here's some evidence of my own, from the 2001 British census, that should debunk your ideas that Muslims are the cream of British society: Muslims have the highest unemployment, least education, worst health, are the least likely to own their own homes, and, most damningly for your bizarre ideas, are both the most likely to be working in unskilled jobs and the least least likely to be working in high-skilled professions.
And Britain has the most successful Muslim community in Western Europe! The picture is even bleaker elsewhere.
explanation for Muslim poverty, ignorance, and disease
Submitted by painter on Sun, 2006-02-05 01:19.
Within the Muslim culture, the Quran is considered to be the actual living word of God and not to be tampered with. Dictates from within this book must be taken with utmost seriousness. Any contradictions are not tolerated. To do so is to contradict God. To Muslims, it is a “killing” offense. Nor are Muslims nor even non-Muslims allowed to criticize the Quran in any way whatsoever.
It is thought that all questions can be answered by the Quran. Therefore, using backward thinking, only questions that can be answered by the Quran should be asked. This is a problem from a secular point of view as there is little in that holy book about physics, chemistry, geology, biology, engineering, astronomy, or for that matter, virtually any study of any subject other than the Quran itself and it’s and man’s relationship to God.
With this sort of importance given to the book, Muslim society then elevates those who make the study of the Quran into the highest level of their society. Those who are recognized as the greatest scholors of the Quran are also the most reverred people within Muslim society.
This leads to some problems! For a young Muslim man then, the position of highest regard he can hope to attain in life is as a religious scholor. He is taught that all questions asked by man can be answered by thoughtful study of the Quran. In Muslim society generally as in all others, there are goals that young men strive to achieve in hopes of receiving recognition by the society around them. Therefore, he isn’t going to study electrical engineering, biology, and so on. Those won’t offer him the position in life he desires; and in a Muslim’s life the afterlife seems to mean even more than anything here on earth. Therefore he has two primary and very powerful reasons for being interested only in studying the Quran.
So what is he required to study? He needs to be able to read—that’s it. Next he’s required to memorize every word. No arguments are allowed, so creative thinking is discouraged. A person only able to read, and who only reads a religious book is seriously under-educated by todays standards. This however, is normal in the Muslim world (other than among so called Moderate Muslims or those who would describe themselves as secular).
Within these societies all energies are devoted to religious life. They have little interest in government and as a consequence have bad government. They aren't entreprenureal or inventive so there are few businesses that actually create something. Traditionally Arab society earned money acting as intermediaries between the East and the West, but produced few products themselves. To the extent that Muslim societies have managed to prosper at all one would have to credit their police state governments who have been very un-Islamic generally in daily practice and have managed to work with the West over the years to some degree. In a purely fundamentalist State operating under Sharia, these governments would not have such freedoms.Those secular schools that do exist now would be forced to change their curriculum and likely would be unable to teach any subject not fully supported by the Mullahs. There goes biology, chemistry, physics etc.
Muslims are already the poorest, least educated, people that are an identifiable group on earth. It would only get worse under the fundamentalists as they would push these forces even further. Think of Afganistan under the Taliban!
to Sobieski from nermin
Submitted by nermin on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:02.
i have been there Mr.i said to Mr Bob go and ask in kings college hospital because he is British and live near london..then where r u from to know about britian......have you heard about Dr Magdi yacob who got sir title from the present queean of england....you donot know everything ...donot u...i just give examples...only me know a big list of my own colleagues and friends who live now in USA and UK afyterbeing tempted by high salries and 5 years contract to work..but to relief you many of them will return home because you made it hell for them to live there.
Not getting anywhere really...
Submitted by Eddie (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:56.
This debate appears to me to be nothing more than cultural mud-slinging. Grow up people. This has nothing to do with 12 stupid illustrations - it's sheer manipulation. It's politics. It's always politics, open your eyes. And TM is right - Original Islam has to do with love, respect, spirituality and sharing - just like christianity, just like most faiths. Muslim radicals are very poor representatives for their own faith. The manipulators have everybody just where they want them - at each others throat. Not the first time in history. I'm a Brit/Dane living in Denmark. I support any free press to print anything they want - If muslim radicals her don't like it, they are free to use the courts to decide whether they have been subject to blasphemy. This is their right in a free democratic society. Radical muslims in Denmark count approx. 5% or less of the muslim population. Sometimes feelings get hurt - it can't be helped in a free world - true faith should be strong enough to withstand ridicule or satire.
muslims in the west....
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:33.
so your friends left the middle east because they could make more money in the west? so much for the middle east being superior to the west.
while they were in the west did your friends get taxed for being non-christian or non-catholic? only in the middle east do non-muslims get taxed for what they believe. once again, islam is not a tolerant religion.
Give it up
Submitted by Sobieski (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:15.
Are there successful Muslims in Britain or in other Western European nations? Yes. No one is denying that. Are these successful people the exception rather than the rule? Yes, they are.
Look, either come up with some plausible numbers from a real source (which you won't be able to do) or just admit that you were wrong to say that most doctors are Muslim, and that Muslims are the most successful and educated people in Europe (which I have just conclusively proved is false).
Saying "go look for yourself" or "I know a lot of people" is meaningless. Find real numbers and facts to disprove me, or stop harping on about this point.
When you are in a hole, stop digging.
(I am English, by the way).
to Sobieski
Submitted by nermin on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:23.
of course i cannot provide you with documents these thinghs are not found in documents as well as the mistakes of british doctors increases by 50 % you will not find a document for it.....but it i senough for me taht you admittt that muslims in europe are working in high jobs ...but you say it is teh exception ..of course thisis the usual mind of the white european man who always thinks taht he is superior to others...
i read in a boook written by you that th e english sees himself as an english as if he won th e ist prize in lottery ( comparin to other nations).....well done...me too i feel myself as muslim woman win th efirst prize in life and after life Mr english man
Laughable
Submitted by Sobieski (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:37.
Of course you can't find any documents proving your point because they don't exist, because you are wrong.
Go back to my post up the thread entitled "Oh Dear", click on the hyper-links I have included, and you will see all the information that proves that I am right and that you are talking nonsense.
This is not rocket science. I am not making this up. Muslims are, for the most part, not successful either here or in other parts of Europe. If you refuse to believe this even when I have provided conclusive evidence, then there really is nothing further to discuss.
What is untrue does not become true just because you dislike the reality.
Questions for Muslim posters
Submitted by Anonym11 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:46.
I think you may have missed this post so I'm taking the liberty of repeating my comment:
To Nernin (or any Muslim who feels like answering):
Maybe you can help clear something up for me,
why are Christians - or people of any non-Muslim denomination for that matter - expected to observe the Muslim commandment - for lack of a better word - that you cannot depict the prophet?
Why should WE adhere to Muslim doctrine and tradition? It seems to me that you should be equally outraged to see us eating pork, drinking, or neglecting to pray 5 times a day and yet that does not seem to be the case. I'm honestly wondering why and I hope you can clarify this for me and others.
Oh, and, Nernin: You asked if we dared to publish cartoons that mock "those who worship cows", which I took to mean Hindus even though they merely revere the cow and to some extent consider them religious symbols.They don't worship them.
The answer to your question is yes: No belief is or should be exempt from criticism or satire and thus historically virtually every god or deity has been depicted and been subject to satire and, yes, in some cases ridicule. This is true of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Islam.
from nermin to whom posteQuestions for Muslim d
Submitted by nermin on Wed, 2006-02-01 19:08.
ooh your are mixing things up in weird way..noone an di again say noone ,no muslim ever ask you to do islam pillars ..this is foolishness ..can you provide me from where did you get these silly ideas..what any Muslim says is that you respect other people faiths even if you donot believe in them or in anything…I cannot mock hindu for example…I know that are secular countries and you are away from any religions long time ago.but if you are free to do or believe let other believe …but you want all people to be like you..we certain values and moral that we cherish and it is nonsense to speak or argue with people who donot believe in god while have..the gap is tremendously big between us….you think you are the right side and of course I think the same….i laughed a lot when I watched a program of Barbara walters with a protestant priest. she asked him if prostitute and gays have the chance to goto heaven he said yes if they believe in christ as god and as savior .she asked him what about the jews and muslims will they shave the chance to go heaven too he replied no they donot as they donot believe in Christ the redeemer and savior as god..hhah very funny..this explain a lot..every side says he is the only side will go to heaven…so why you criticize us…any way this universe has a god ,,one god ,the creator who has no son and no partners .he wil judge between us sooner than you think.
In response to Nermin
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 19:51.
Thanks for getting back to me.
"ooh your are mixing things up in weird way"
Actually, I'm not. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I never argued that Muslims were demanding that we complete the five pillars of Islam, what I'm saying is that you're apparently demanding that we conform to a commandment that does not exist in Christian and Western tradition, i.e. the ban against depicting Muhammed, even though we are not Muslims.
Building on that, I wondered how and if this depiction differentiates itself from other Muslim requirements such as the prohibition of eating pork or drinking since the fact that Westerners engage in these things does not seem to cause similar outrage. In short, why does it not bother you that we do not adhere to these particular, Muslim laws while depicting Muhammed creates such outrage? How are they different? And why do you expect us to abide by some Muslim rules and not others?
Or have I misunderstood you? Is your problem not so much with the depiction of Muhammed by infidels per se, but rather the somewhat disrespectful way he's being PORTRAYED in these cartoons, e.g. with a bomb in his turban? If THAT is the case I can understand you better, but if it's a religious requirement you wish to impose on Westerners, i.e. you can't depict Muhammed, PERIOD, then I don't.
I'd like to hear if it's the one or the other.
"I watched a program of Barbara walters with a protestant priest."
Somehow I don't think you're the first person to get a cuckle out of Barbara Walters...
As for the priest, you can't possibly be serious in citing that isolated example out of context. The Christian denominations are legion and there is no fixed, absolute guide to who will be admitted into the Kingdom of God. The diversity of interpretations is enormous.
Hell, even individual priests within various denomination have different ideas, but generally you'll find the overall Christian idea of this to be extremely inclusive since we believe Jesus died for our sins. The concept of salvation by grace is another huge part of this. But I didn't really wish to discuss Christian theology, particularly not on the basis of the statements of one priest.
"he wil judge between us sooner than you think."
You don't happen to have the exact date, do you?
I'm going bowling on Friday you see...
from nermin to Anonymous11
Submitted by nermin on Wed, 2006-02-01 21:01.
I hope you are still there…of course there is a huge difference between eating pork or drinking alcohol and depicting the prophet photo….eating and drinking is god orders in islam which I something very special so it does not matter to me..also you must know that there are a lot of Christians living in Arabic countries and also in Islamic countries and also Jews. Christians eat pork and have their own shops which sell that and my Christian neighbor drink and our relationship is kind..this is not my own business at all..
But you must know that depicting prophet Mohammad and all prophets are prohibited in islam and in our films about islam .prophets never appear …and the problem is that the news paper knows that and even asked many artist is to do these drawing but they refused ..so they know…but the news paper insisted and made a competition and encouraged who did that drawings…so evil intentions are very obvious..and for me of course I condemn these darwing even before seeing it…it doesnot matter tome what are these drawings.it is a principal. now I want to ask you quietly what did anyone gain from those photos…is this wisdom….is this logic instead of trying to build bridges between nation..we go on to cut relations and put hate and psychological bloack between nation..i have never hated Denmark or have any thing with Danish people ..but now even if there was no boycotting, I would have psychological block…you donot know anything about us..hav eyou ever been or lived in Islamic country…no…..we are arabs are passionate people and have hot blood and half of our population are young people who already have lots of emotions and hot blood…
I read that a 6 years old Saudi boy said to his mother that he will not eat his breakfast if she gave him Danish cheese or butter…the prophet to that kid is something very special you will never understand what I say..we are raised on stories of prophets before sleep by our father or mother beside stories of cinderlla an d others ..we love them and respect them and take them as standards in life…we always remember the patience of this prophet or what the other did when we fall into close or similar situation…
Finally donot you agree with me that certain issues are better to avoid than to provoke ..noone gain from this cartoons issues and if you are wise you see that the wo;ld is already fulminating and no need for more…
Some people say that muslim believe in Christ an dother prophet so they have to respect them but reverse is not true….but no take care I don’t recommend or accept mocking or provoking hindu or atheists too..thisis not wisdom and islam teach us to be wise.aslo if muslims believe in those prophets so they hav eto respect while you no…but donot you see that respect is different from muslim and Christians to the same characters….we believe in Christ and you too but we donot depict him but you do..so there is a huge difference..
Sobieski is obviously right, Nermin.
Submitted by Anonymous11 (not verified) on Wed, 2006-02-01 18:34.
Sobieski cited credible sources to back up his claim: You were proven factually wrong
so what's the harm in admitting it? Or do you prefer to cling to your illusions?
It is an uncontested fact that most (not all) Muslims in Europe are either unemployed or working rather low-end jobs, be it as cab drivers, green grocers or cleaners.
In a particularly biased statement you said:
"of course thisis the usual mind of the white european man who always thinks taht he is superior to others...".
It's NOT about superiority, it's about incontrovertible facts. Hell, what's wrong with driving a cab anyway?