Muslims in the French Army

Last year I read somewhere that 15% of the French army consists of Muslim soldiers and that this is the reason why the French authorities do not have the army restore law and order in the Muslim suburbs. So far, I have not been able to find confirmation of this figure in official statistics. In September 2005, the Institut français des relations internationales (French Institute for International Relations, IFRI) published a report stating that 10 to 20% of the army is of immigrant origin, most of them North African. “Their loyalty is continuously questioned,” Christophe Bertossi of IFRI said.

Other countries (the Netherlands, Austria,...) also worry about radical Muslims in the military.

Re: Reason

Yes, especially because Bronislav Kaminski was a Russian (of Polish descent)  and beside his family name didn`t had anything to do with Poland, and Erich Julius Eberhard von Bach-Zelewski`s connection to Poland is that he had a Polish ancestor somewhere in the XVI century (hence the noble family name)..

@Kapitein Andre

Let me remind what you have written earlier: "Hitler fielded Waffen-SS Regiments of Russians, Poles, Romanians, Hungarians, Finns, and others" - And now you`re writing that: "Poles were not in significant numbers in the Waffen SS (nor were they there for reason "D")"  -  this is the right step into the direction of admiting that there were NO Poles serving in the SS - but of course you "don`t want to go into the details"  - which is a very conveniant way of retreating from your previous statement - but a the same time a way of demonstrating that you aren`t very well versed in WWII history - at least when it comes to that particular issue. If you`d be indeed very well versed in this one particular subject you`d know that there were indeed Polish citizens serving in the - Wermacht (not Waffen SS) - there were about 50 thousand of them - and for the most part those people were Germans who after 1918 remained living under Polish authority (you can compare them i.e. to the Sudetendeutschen in pre war Czechoslovakia), and the rest of them were Kassubians and Silesians who were forcefully drafted into the German army - However there were no Poles the SS - There might have been a small number  (less than 100) of Silesians who for whatever reason were indeed serving in the SS - but once again I will repeat my previous statement: There were no Poles serving in the SS - and putting my countrymen in the same line as Russians (there were more than a million Russians who were either serving in the SS or in the Wermaht, as well as the Finns, Romanians and Hungarians, who were German allies - not only dosn`t have much to do with reality, but it is also quite insulting)
 

Reason

The reason why it is especially insensitive to associate Poles with the Waffen-SS is that the Warsaw Rising in August 1944 saw the Kaminski and Dirlewanger Waffen-SS Brigades, largely Russian and Ukrainian troops and convicts, act in such a bestial manner in areas like Wola that Bach-Zalewski the SS Commander had Dirlewanger executed.

Anyone who reads about the behaviour of these units in Warsaw and other Waffen-SS units in Poland where the SS ran whole areas of the country could see it is grossly insulting and factually incorrect.

@ Ice Part II

Secondly, I suggest you step cautiously when judging whose countrymen are whose. I have a great deal of respect for the Polish people and consider them wholly or partially responsible for: (a) the greatest resistance against the Third Reich of any occupied country (incl. fielding up to 1.6 million soldiers with either the Soviets or Allies while under occupation); (b) the greatest resistance against the Soviet Union of any country under the Iron Curtain; (c) the fall of Communism in the Eastern Bloc (1989); (d) the defence of the whole of Europe against the Red Army in 1919-1921; and (e) the defence of the whole of Europe against the Ottoman Empire (Siege of Vienna). So relax pal.

ctually I am well versed on

ctually I am well versed on the Second World War. There were Poles serving in the Waffen SS, although not in the Einsatzkommando responsible or Death's Head Brigades responsible for the battlefield atrocities and concentration/extermination camps which have tainted the entire organization. The Waffen SS was where nearly all of the non-Germans serving the National Socialists were found, and also paradoxically where the more fervent Germans enlisted. I will not go into detail any further on the Waffen SS

Bit strange this considering Rzeczpospolita Polska ceased to exist on 17th September 1939 when the USSR invaded and declared their nationality void. The Nazis too broke up the State and eradicated The Polish nation.

There were in Western Poland the "German" areas Poles who joined the Wehrmacht rather than go to KZ...................many defected at the Battle of Falaise Gap in 1944 when Maczek's "British" Polish units closed the Gap with their tanks.

The Ukrainian Waffe-SS units may well have had Galicians who like the population of Lwow (Lviv) will have had Polish ID from the pre-war Republic.

To return to the French. Senegalese and Moroccan troops fought for France against Germany in both World Wars, and there were Moroccan graves in Wiesbaden from the 1923 Occupation. Hitler spent his initial months having the miscegenated offspring borne by German women hunted down and exterminated - quite a few ten year olds.

So who knows how loyal Muslim troops are to France today...........who knows how loyal French troops are at all today...........they were not too effective in May 1940 either

@ Ice Part I

Firstly, I would like to address your comment on my historical accuracy with regards to the Waffen SS:

 

"There were NO Poles in the SS, nor were there any Polish SS units. There were French, Dutch, Latvian, Lithuanian, Ukrainian, Russian.. ..and even Indian ..etc SS units - but there were NO Polish SS units, nor were Poles ever serving in the SS. Perhaps you should get your facts straight before making such statements - that frankly speaking are very insulting to my countrymen."

Actually I am well versed on the Second World War. There were Poles serving in the Waffen SS, although not in the Einsatzkommando responsible or Death's Head Brigades responsible for the battlefield atrocities and concentration/extermination camps which have tainted the entire organization. The Waffen SS was where nearly all of the non-Germans serving the National Socialists were found, and also paradoxically where the more fervent Germans enlisted. I will not go into detail any further on the Waffen SS...

Whole SS regiments composed entirely of Russians were fielded. The non-German nationalities within the Waffen SS were there because: (a) they were POWs forcibly inducted to replace German casualties; (b) they were nationalists fighting against what they regarded as the greater of two evils - the Soviets; (c) they were genuine or brainwashed Fascists or National Socialists; and (d) they were adventurers looking for "action" a'la the French Foreign Legion. Poles were not in significant numbers in the Waffen SS (nor were they there for reason "D") , but they were there, as were Americans, Mexicans, and others of partial or whole German descent.

 

Another example showing France`s dawnfall...part III

Well I think that the anwsers to that are quite obvious:
First, during the XIV and XX century there was no political
corectness..Secondly ..the Muslims were given incentives ..both rewards
and punishments:Rewards: - They were allowed to live - there was no way
back for them from where they came from. If they weould try to return
to their fellow Tatars - they would die. If they would try to resist
the authority of our king, they would die as well.- They were allowed
to be Muslims - during the Medieval times the Muslims here after
recieveng an a permit from the king and the Catholic Church were able
to build mosqes (both the king and the church had to agree for the
construction of an individual mosque)- They were allowed to gain
privliges in the form of titles as a reward for their military
service.Punishments - As mentioned, they would die if they would
attempt to return to their homelands, they would die if they would try
to resist, and they would die if they would move to any W.European
country. They also didn`t had the option of moving to other Muslim
countries, cose because they were fighting for Christianity, weren`t
quite welcomed there.- They would be stripped from all their rights,
including their titles and the right to practice their religion (which
happend from time to time) at any sign of disobedience.  Perhaps Europe
just needs to implement a stick and carrot method to integrate its
Muslims.. We re a living example showing that this methods can create
wonders.. or have you seen any Muslims here lately.

Another example showing France`s dawnfall...part II

But lets get back to the topic.The whole
issue of Muslims or foraigners serving in the national army is in line
together with the issue of the integration of non-Europeans into the
European society - it`s basicly the same issue. The reason for that is
the obvious lack of both positive and negative incentives which would
allow the Muslims to integrate both in the armed forces as well as in
the society.I do`nt know if you realize that, but since the Medieval
times (it was around the 1390s when this situation occured for the
first time) till the early XX century, some 10-5% (this number
decreased over time) of the Polish army was ..Muslim. Those Muslims
were Tatars were members of the so called White Hord, which after
losing the struggle over the crown of the great Khan of the Mongol
Empire were expelled from Central Asia and found refuge in our country.
Due a curse of various coincidence in which for example, the Tatar
leader, after a  loosing battle, fell of his horse right into spear,
became leaderless, and in the following years were turned into an elite
part of our military. They were allowed to settle on the royal estates,
they were given royal titles and they became the kings bodyguards. In
the following decades they were used over and over in wars against both
the Ottoman Turks as well as the Crimean Tatars - because of their
martial skills and their fanatism they became heroes.. During the
Battle of Vienna in 1683 it was a Muslim soldier serving in the Polish
army, captain Samuel Mirza-Krzeczowski, who saved Jan  III Sobieski`s
life and by doing so perhaps prevented the islamization of Europe..But
why is it so that in those times Muslims who served in our army were
not only fighting other Muslims, but also became fameous for their
patriotism.. 

Another example showing France`s dawnfall...part I

..No suprise here. I`m only suprised by the two following comments:
  "Hitler fielded Waffen-SS Regiments of Russians, Poles,
Romanians, Hungarians, Finns, and others;" "The
WW II units you speak of were filled with many men, particularly the
Poles and Finns, who hated the Russians." So let me rply to this: There
were NO Poles in the SS, nor were there any Polish SS units. There were
French, Dutch, Latvian, Lithuanian, Ukrainian, Russian.. ..and even
Indian ..etc SS units - but there were NO Polish SS units, nor were
Poles ever serving in the SS. Perhaps you should get your facts
straight before making such statements - that frankly speaking are very
insulting to my countrymen.

Our goatlovers in uniform

Our goatlovers in uniform clearly passed the test when they helped the serbs load thousand of albanian muslims onto busses to be executed and buried in mass graves.

Mixed armies...

I am quite frankly suprised by your responses. Western countries have been adept at maintaining their control of and the unity of multiethnic/national/religious/racial armed services. From the Roman legions, to the Grande Armee, to the Wehrmacht, to the American military - elites came to the conclusion that it was more efficient to have someone else do your fighting for you.

The Romans had to contend with legions that were led by Romans but composed of Germanic tribesmen and provincials; Napoleon inducted large numbers of Poles into his armies even into his most elite units; Hitler fielded Waffen-SS Regiments of Russians, Poles, Romanians, Hungarians, Finns, and others; and the US army has a high number of Blacks and Hispanics in it.

Even the IDF includes religious and secular Jews, the Druze, Arab Jews, and Arab Muslims as well.

A telling example of the power of mixed armies is that the Indian Army's assault upon the holy Sikh shrine at Amritsar was in fact commanded by a Sikh general.

Even if some non-French and/or Muslim soldiers in the French forces did engage in sabotage or turn on their comrades, the backlash against Muslim soldiers would be tremendous.

While I prefer "pure" armed forces myself, I do understand that the State has reasons for inducting just about anyone into the Army.

Kapitein, although there is

Kapitein, although there is some validity to what you're saying, there are other factors at work here. In the case of Rome this didn't work out well at all in the end. The WW II units you speak of were filled with many men, particularly the Poles and Finns, who hated the Russians.

In the case of the US army foreigners often use it as a means of quickly getting citizenship and assimilating into the culture and country. At different times it's been a real problem, but after we ended the draft we could pick and choose and it worked out well.

It's really a matter of the soldiers motivation. If these Muslim soldiers are there to defend France then I see no problem. However, when French officers are telling me that they are worried then it should give us all pause.

I would still like to know what the real numbers are?

Beurs in the French army

I am feeling more than usually angry about this subject. I recall after NATO's intervention in Kosovo that the local Serbs in Mitrovica voiced concerns about the large number of Muslims in the French units deployed there. I have a French military magazine from that time that shows a French Marine with a very visible "Allah Akbar" written in Arabic on his helmet band. I

In the 80's after reading Simon Murray's 'Legionnaire" I decided to join the Foreign Legion. I was young and dumb but it was an adventure all the same. I signed up in at an old Vauban citadel in Lille and was immediately warned by a Legion NCO (a tough as nails Corsican) to be very wary of the Arabs among the conscripts on the base. During selection and basic there were a few Muslims, but they were usually washed out. The few Muslims I encountered in the short time I served were invariably the Church-of-England type Muslims.

Even in the 80's I was struck by the large number of beurs (North Africans) serving in professional French units. It sometimes reminded me of a Benetton commercial. If there is one piece of good news is that that very few of these French Muslims become officers or NCO’s

A little off topic but I viewed a documentary a while ago about France's new aircraft carrier the "Charles De Gaul". One of the subjects of the program was a stunning beurette officer, a Tabitha Cash look-alike. I know this is completely unwarranted but I thought to myself, hell some lucky flight officer or officers are having a shag while waiting for his next sortie against the Taliban.(Yes I am pathetic) But seriously as long as the French keep their Muslims far from their Force de Frappe then I feel safe. But things will get interesting in Levant based French units when the Israelis and the bearded-and-Kalishkinov crowd go at it again.

Muslims and their holy holidays?

This latest holy month of BOMBADON has been interesting. Why do Muslims insist on calling them holy, when they won't even take a brief respite from killing other Muslims, let alone infidels?

Paris burning with jihadi savages running amok

I cannot believe how grave and serious it is getting!! Cops went into a NO-GO zone for the first time.  Look what happened - some cops were killed and some got injured and vehicles got burnt..Why?! 

Answer is in India!?  India has no-go zones also - particularly in Gujarat.  Epicenter is 'fakistan' - source of all global terrorism and nucleanr black market.

Write to  news media and media folks, to sound out the alarm: 60II@cbsnews.com, potts@freepress.com,  newshour@bbc.co.uk,kschoenberger@mercurynews.com,kmacdonald@denvernewspaperagency.com,

talkback@the-sun.co.uk, prafulbidwai1@yahoo.co.in, saja@columbia.edu, sree@sree.net, saul@jpost.com,klopez@nationalreview.com..etc. 

It's not the numbers it's their locations

The real problem is what branch of the military they're located in. Infantry, the troops who would most likely to be called upon for riot duty, only make up about 6 percent of any army. I was told five years ago that Muslims make up most of the infantrymen. If this is so, and I haven't seen any solid numbers either, then you can bet the French are more then a little worried about using them.  

We are not family (part 2)

@ Dr. Daniel Falor

 

The metaphor you use suggests that we Americans are stuck with serious, familial obligations toward the Europeans regardless of how abusive and disloyal they are toward us.  How long will you hold to those obligations?  Exactly what percentage of Europeans must become Muslim, anti-rational, or viciously anti-American before you finally cut those family ties?

 

Might I suggest that the better and saner metaphor to describe the relationship between the United States and the various European nations is that of friends and, in some cases, allies?  Technically you can't stop being someone's brother, but you can become former friends.  When France or the Netherlands descends into civil war, it will be much better for the United States, when the Europeans hypocritically appeal to us for brotherly help, if we can say, "We were never brothers.  We used to be friends, but you abandoned the friendship.  Now you face a problem of your making.  Don't drag us into it."

We are not family (part 1)

@ Dr. Daniel Falor

 

It alarms and sickens me to read your description of Americans and Europeans--especially the French--as "family" and "brothers and sisters."  France dropped out of the military side of NATO in the 1960s and booted everybody out of Paris.  They were proudly AGAINST any close, familial relationship with the United States -- at least one that would cost them anything.  Sweden, Ireland, Switzerland, Austria, and Finland never joined NATO, and their elites spent most of the Cold War vilifying the American government and American culture, though they made sure that their airplane runways fit NATO specifications so that the Americans could risk their lives to save them if they were attacked by the Soviets.  The majority of other Western European nations, though NATO members, refused to share the risks of deterring the Soviets and never allowed nuclear weapons on their soil, leaving most of the risk of defending Europe to fall to their American "brothers and sisters."

Test their loyalty

We have Muslims, too, in the Army  and the other branches. When they are few, it usually means no problems at all, as the commander of a Spanish ship confidently told me once(he only had one single Muslim sailor-girl in the crew).

But one of our biggest concerns is in our North African towns of Ceuta and Melilla.

Over there, a significant proportion of the local population is of immigrant (Moroccan) origin. And many of them end up working in the Military. The worry of the officialdom is always their loyalty, and not only for religious reasons, but for nationality reasons (they all have Spanish passports, and some of them are truly Spaniards, but not all). The worry is higher in Ceuta, as the sorrounding local population is Arab, while the neighbours of Melilla are Berbers and less loyal to the Moroccan king.

When Moroccans seized Perejil island in July 2002, many Muslim soldiers suddenly fell ill...

This is, certainly, a major concern.  

Spanish Diplomat

Test them and see what happens.

Put a sampling of soldiers, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, into action in selected situations, such as riot control, and see what happens.

If a soldier does not obey orders or performs poorly - Muslim or non-Muslim alike - discipline or dismiss them as any army would do.

 

Get rid of them. They will

Get rid of them. They will create havoc within the troops. When the Iraq War started there was an incident in the American Army where an American Muslim soldier murdered some American officers by throwing a grenade in their tent.

Having Muslims in the military is like arming the enemy. Get them out.

Muslims in the French army

As an American, I fear for the French, and all of Europe, in the face of this onslought from Islam. Like family, I know that we here in America disagree on occasion with our European brothers and sisters, but as with any other family, when outside threats occur, we must stand together. Damn the "politically correct" politicians! Full speed ahead!