British Healthcare: Government Immigration Policy Makes Way for European Doctor

From the desk of James McConalogue on Fri, 2006-11-24 16:10

A recent government shake-up has altered the immigration and healthcare systems irreversibly: Britain can now look forward to welcoming a new generation of European trainee doctors whilst waving goodbye to the Indo-British doctor model on which the National Health Service (NHS) has come to rest.

Concerned for its lack of initiative on immigration policy, the Home Office issued a bunch of documents in 2005, showing renewed Labour government policy thinking on migration and asylum in Britain. The two Home Office reports, Controlling Our Borders: Making Migration Work for Britain, Five Year Strategy for Asylum and Immigration, issued in February 2005, and Selective Admission: Making Migration Work for Britain, issued in July 2005, were evidence of the rethinking. More importantly, they added substantially to the way that New Labour ordinarily thought of British immigration policies – those reports are among the weighty gobbets of evidence that Europe is now laying down the rules on who Britain imports and who they export.

What’s annoying, first and foremost, is that the new rules are clearly defined by Europe – not Britain. They are clearly biased towards sourcing labour from Europe before sourcing from elsewhere throughout the globe. A recent report released in March 2006, A Points-Based System: Making Migration Work for Britain, is clear to acknowledge its priority to European labour:

“With an expanded European Union there is an accessible and mobile workforce already contributing to our growing economy, closing many gaps experienced by employers. In a changing environment where our European commitments provide many opportunities for the UK to benefit from this new source of labour, it is right that we look again at migration to the UK as a whole. Our starting point is that employers should look first to recruit from the UK and the expanded EU before recruiting migrants from outside the EU.”

Under the reign of former Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, the Home Office issued the following statement when releasing the latter report, spelling out the fairness principle:

“The system aims to ensure that only those migrants who benefit the UK – for example the highly-skilled such as surgeons or scientists or those who are coming to fill gaps in the labour market that cannot be met from the domestic workforce such as teachers and nurses, can come to work or study, while introducing new measures to ensure that migrants comply with their leave to remain and go home at the end of their stay.”

Yet, the principle is far from fair – the Department of Health issued in the same week a statement that would effectively bring an end to non-EEA trainee doctors, thus kicking out the qualified international “surgeons or scientists” it claims to defend in its statement. It wants to rid itself of internationally experienced non-EEA doctors, to enable opportunities for EU-member state doctors the opportunity to train and practice in Britain. Thus, Britain can look forward to welcoming a new generation of European trainee doctors and wave goodbye to the Indo-British doctor model on which the NHS has come to rest. The government has not assured the very best global experience matches the very best doctor positions in the UK; rather, they have first ensured that trainee doctors are drawn from the European pool. This pro-European healthcare recruitment model even seems to clash with the New Labour ‘Third Way’ tendency to embrace the international currents and waves of globalized labour.

On 7 March, following Home Office changes to the immigration rules, the Department of Health (DoH) declared that the government had shifted its classification and policy status of trainee postgraduate doctors and dentists. Previously, overseas doctors training in the UK had been treated by the Home Office and DoH as ‘being in training, and not in employment in the UK.’ For the future, it proposed that permit-free junior doctors in Foundation Programme, SHO and Speciality Registrar grades be subject to the ‘employment’ category, which would require work permit regulations. Since the DoH announcement in March – and implementation of policy from 3rd April – overseas trainee doctors from outside the European Economic Area (EEA) were asked to obtain work permits, while it continued to remain unclear whether those trainee doctors could be shortlisted for openings alongside UK and EU doctors for future jobs.

Between March and May, major tensions erupted between overseas doctors, deaneries, the NHS and the DoH. President of the British Association of Physicians of Indian Origin (BAPIO), Dr Ramesh Mehta, has advocated a clear view on the frustration caused to overseas doctors whilst waiting for DoH clarification. On 21 April, Dr Ramesh Mehta expressed his initial feelings of “absolute betrayal” to the BBC. ‘They sell their homes, take out loans and leave their families behind to work in Britain. The change in rules is an absolute betrayal. Many will now return home with debt but no diploma, no qualifications’ he said.

An online survey conducted by BAPIO between 24 June and 3rd July produced some startling findings on the effects of the ruling among 1,106 trainee doctors:

•    78.8% felt that changes to the immigration policy were preventing them from completing their training
•    77.8% were planning to leave the UK as a result of the changes.

The survey is not a farce – a large number of this sample had worked in the NHS for at least one year. In Late August, Dr Ramesh Mehta advised that “[…] until the immigration issue is resolved, we believe there will be a continued strain between doctors and academic institutions in the UK and the Indian sub-continent.” That strain has now surfaced.

With the British International Doctors Association (BIDA) now predicting that approximately 10,000 overseas doctors have returned to the Indian sub-continent since the change in immigration rules, the situation is at crisis point for non-EU overseas doctors.

Although many have protested against “mixed messages” provided by the DoH, Hospital Doctor reported in late September on the direct advice provided by the Health Minister, Lord Warner. Following NHS Employers guidance and DoH approval, the Health Minister clearly and apologetically advised that for the overseas doctor whose visa is due to expire before the end of a post for which they are applying will not be shortlisted along with UK and EU doctors. In fact, at a later date, Lord Warner put the case perfectly: ‘Don’t think I don’t understand the situation. I would much rather not have done some of the things we did. But being part of Europe brings certain regulations you can’t opt out of.’

The Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, and his delegation advised BAPIO that they would bring up the issue of immigration regulations – preventing thousands of Indian doctors from working in the NHS – when they met with Tony Blair on 10 October. Following the DoH announcement in early March, subsequent protests and a petition from BAPIO to DoH led to a judicial review. The review is to be held in the High Court on 7 and 8 December.

In the current climate of uncertainty, the foremost concerns of non-EEA doctors have been to focus not only on whether the High Court judicial review in December falls in their favour but if judgement will arrive in time for those international trainee doctors applying for Speciality Training openings.

The status of non-EEA doctors working in the NHS appears likely to be brought into further disarray after the Home Office announced that it demanded significant changes to doctor visa applications for the Higher Skilled Migrant Programme (HSMP) scheme. On Tuesday 7 November, it demanded that those changes – to disallow switches in immigration application categories – be made within twenty four hours (by Wednesday). The Home Office issued the following statement: ‘As we are removing the GP Priority provision as part of our changes to the points criteria, people who have leave in these categories will not now be able to switch into HSMP.’ Furthermore, all further applications for the HSMP scheme will be suspended until 5 December. The move by the Home Office follows a series of changes to immigration regulations, which began in March this year.

Whatever the outcome of the judicial review and the eventual practices supported by the Home Office, it is a perfect example of the Europeanization of British Healthcare. The first to suffer are the international medical graduates (non-EU) who bothered to come to the country to train as doctors in various specialities, and more often than not, soothe the pains of our wounded NHS; the second to suffer are the British people, who are now offered a new generation of migrant European doctors to patch up their fatigued health service.

human nature....finito

Submitted by marcfrans on Sun, 2006-11-26 20:34.

@ King Cobra

I will ignore all of your latest invective and make two final points.

1) The subject of "core islamic values" was introduced here by you - not me -  in your very first comment ("European doctors for Britain"). You claimed (rethorically) that the west was not better than the "core islamic values that it claims to be fighting against".  It created later more confusion than anything else in our 'discussion'.

2) You also are the one who introduced the off-topic subject of Pakistan, by expressing your dislike for "hypocrisy" in the context of alleged American support for "Pakistani dictatorship".  

The Pakistani-Indian conflict is a very important one.  All countries in the world try to have 'decent' relations with both important countries, and in that sense they all "support" Pakistan (and India).  The USA and everyone else has to live with the reality of Pakistan as it is, and it is a very tenuous relationship as you well know, given that Pakistan's grudging 'cooperation' in the war on terror is indispensable.   Both the USA and India have increasingly been moving towards some kind of strategic partnership under the pressure of events and the commonality of their respective interests.  This is highly resented in Pakistani governmental circles, but that is unavoidable.  The real patron and "supporter" of Pakistan (both in the past and today) is China, and - I repeat - for obvious reasons.   Last week the Chinese President visited both countries.  The contrast between the minor pro forma accords he signed in India and the three major cooperation agreements with Pakistan was sharp indeed.  At least for those who follow geopolitics closely and who can look at any conflict from different sides simultaneously.

I hope that you will make good use of this information in the future.

@marcfrans

Submitted by atheling on Sun, 2006-11-26 20:44.

Re your comment to "King Cobra" (I have to laugh every time I see that moniker):

"I hope that you will make good use of this information in the future."

Don't hold your breath, friend; he probably won't get it. He's too busy crying into his pillow.

British people, not Indian doctors, betrayed by government (1)

Submitted by Armor on Sun, 2006-11-26 02:00.

“ Government Immigration Policy Makes Way for European Doctor ”

This whole article is a bad joke. Britain does not need any immigrant doctors. The idea that Britain can not train its own doctors doesn't make sense. I can't believe that no one in Britain is interested in becoming a doctor. And the idea that English people are annoyed because Brussels won't let them have Indian doctors is even more ridiculous. Having so many doctors from oversea is proof that the English administration is dysfunctional.

coming to fill gaps in the labour market that cannot be met from the domestic workforce such as teachers and nurses

This is absurd. It cannot be a big problem to find teachers and nurses among the British population. In the end, it will be argued that the government couldn't find any one of value in Britain to do any job at all.

What's annoying, first and foremost, is that the new rules are clearly defined by Europe - not Britain. They are clearly biased towards sourcing labour from Europe before sourcing from elsewhere throughout the globe.

The author of this article is clearly biased towards replacing the British population with third world immigrants. What's annoying is that the current immigration policy has been decided by a crazy leftist minority - not by common folks. It is obvious that most people would rather have British doctors, or even European doctors, than Indian doctors. It is dishonest to criticize the EU for foisting a particular policy on the British people, when British government policy is to make the native population of Britain disappear, without asking them first how they feel about it.

British people, not Indian doctors, betrayed by government (2)

Submitted by Armor on Sun, 2006-11-26 02:01.

second part of my criticism.

I live in Brittany, on the other side of the Channel. We have more and more British people settling in, and I am sure this is mainly a result of mass immigration from the third world to Britain. British people obviously find life more comfortable with fellow Europeans than with Indians.

the international medical graduates (non-EU) who bothered to come to the country to train as doctors in various specialities

They shouldn't have bothered.

They sell their homes, take out loans and leave their families behind to work in Britain. The change in rules is an absolute betrayal.

As if they were doing Britain a favor. Someone should tell them that most British people did not want them to come in the first place. It is the British people who are being betrayed by their government.

a perfect example of the Europeanization of British Healthcare

Is that supposed to mean that British people are not European ?
Are they Asian ?

78.8% felt that changes to the immigration policy were preventing them from completing their training

Instead of probing the feelings of Indian doctors, we need to take a poll to ask the British population what they think of being replaced with Indians and Africans.

No longer waiting

Submitted by marcfrans on Sun, 2006-11-26 00:51.

@ Atheling and King Cobra

It turns out that the 'King' is not really a "self-loather with a eurosneer twist", but rather a simple "self-loathing Brit".  As a non-Brit, I would like to point out that the Brits brought those ancestors (of the Indian doctors) "democracy", or at least important foundations for democracy with Indian features.  That was an invaluable contribution which many others in the world should envy them for, and for the absence of which these others are likely to pay a terrible price in the future (if not today).

The earlier selfloathing comment about alleged "support" for Pakistan's dictatorship" we better ignore. Apparently 'King Cobra' is unaware that all governments, including the UN, officially "suppport" the Pakistani government.  But anybody with real knowledge about geopolitics, and certainly the Indian government, understands that the real "support" for Pakistan in the world comes from China (for obvious reasons).

Really, if the UN and all

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sun, 2006-11-26 01:48.

Really, if the UN and all the other governments as you say support Pakistan, then why is it that part of Kashmir is still in India's control, it is only the USA and Britain along with the Islamic countries that support Pakistan.And it is not alleged support, it is definite blind support. Now you, are going to give us a lesson on geopolitics and Indian Government.We were not debating China's role, in this thread, so don't defer it to China, I am well aware of China's role and the conspiracy of certain countries to destabilsie India you don't have the monopoly on this subject and judging by the monotonous comments seems you are running out of arguments so you have decided to lower the tone by beating the drum of personal insults.

Big deal about democracy, at what cost? and who asked them to, no body sent them an invite did they? You are drifting a bit from the original matter but that is all people like you can do, beat about the bush.

And no amount of mud slinging is going to help your cause, as I said self satisfying pholosophy makes one pompous.

No longer waiting either as it is futile to debate with people with limited abilities as one goes round in circles.

Beating the drum

Submitted by Bob Doney on Sun, 2006-11-26 02:10.

King Cobra: "you have decided to lower the tone by beating the drum of personal insults"

Eh? Yer what? And this is the man who loathes hypocrisy. Yer gotta larf.

Bob Doney

"He started it"

Submitted by Bob Doney on Sun, 2006-11-26 02:27.

"so I had to respond"

No, you didn't.

Anyway, off to beddy-byes now. Nighty night.

Bob Doney

Still waiting...

Submitted by marcfrans on Sun, 2006-11-26 00:30.

@ King Cobra

1) I am still waiting for your explanation as to why America is "responsible" for the individual decisions of countless (Asian) Indian doctors to emigrate to the west.   I guess I will have to wait till 'kingdom come' (and a lot of invective in the meantime).

2) As it happens, I spent a lot of time among "Indian doctors" in the west, and strangely enough, none of them have ever suggested (nor given me the impression) that 'our ancestors' have "robbed" them of their cultures.  Therefore, the question remains why "a self loather with a eurosneer twist" (dixit Atheling), like yourself, would feel a need to make such ridiculous nonsensical assertions.  I guess the answer to that question won't be forthcoming either. (Hint, the answer lies in western media and academia). 

3) Both India and America are the world's greatest democracies of today, and they are likely going to form together the core of the democratic alliance that in the future will have to stand up against the coming China-Eurabia axis of intolerance.   I am still hoping that some (probably smaller) European nations will escape from that axis, but your western selfloathing and USA-bashing bandwagon-jumping makes that less likely.  

4) I have no a priori "dislike" for any religion, but do dislike "philosophies of hatred".  And, unlike you, I actually judge people on the basis of what they say and do TODAY, and NOT on the basis of ancestors (either theirs nor mine).

You could have fooled me

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sun, 2006-11-26 01:26.

You could have fooled me, I refer you to you first comment in response, quoting "core Islamic values" which was not even the part of the discussion,and your remarks about lefties and self loathers demonstrate your philosophy and is most definitely spewing fumes of hatred,
If you don't have the aptitude to understand anything then don't blame it on others, as I said in the previous reply, you have to get of the one track philosophy and then it will become clear even to you.

As for the idea of India and America forming any form of alliance is concerned I have never raised any issue either to dispute it or agree to it, and as far as spending a lot time with Indian Doctors is concerned,so do I, and I have actually, spend in total 9 years in India, so please don't patronise me, I have in my immediate family 2 Indian Doctors so you don't have to lecture me on what and what not they are saying,and it is their greatness if they haven't and possibly also their fear, that as soon as they bring it up people will jump on them,accusing them. By the way every racist says that he is not racist,because he knows a lot of blacks, Asians etc.
How many times do I have to repeat my self, I have not bashed USA for anything else except for it's continued blind support of Pakistan.

You are being so pompous to the extent of being funny, judging people on what they say and do today, you are just like the ones over here who believe in that same philosophy as it is convenient, not to own up to the evils of the past, remember the saying, The Sins of the fathers visit their children. If people had a conscience and even an ounce of shame then they wouldn't be reacting in a selfish tone, and as far as (dixit Atheling) is concerned I don't think much of him as a human being so what? he has his place and I have mine, and no amount of lies and self satisfying pomposity will uproot me, he and you can say whatever you like, you don't scare me. Huff and Puff as much as you like.

Part 2

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sat, 2006-11-25 23:55.

No I am not a leftie, how many times do I have to tell you do your home work,but you are hell bent on making an ass of yourself, you are full of it aren't you assuming this that and the other, so I guess you might be a relative of Hitler then?
You're definitely, a Kindergarten Cop as you seem to know a lot more about it then anyone else on here. you have a nerve talking about self responsibility, when you haven't given a good account of it yourself. So now you want a lecture about Society and mans role within it?

Look, it is a simple thing, if you can't take the TRUTH, as it is often UGLY and indigestible, then just read other people's comments and don't engage them, everyone has a fundamental right to have an opinion and just because it doesn't fit in with your, philosophy of restricted practices please don't jump up and down.

Kindergarten stuff #3

Submitted by marcfrans on Sat, 2006-11-25 23:14.

@ King Cobra

....

 4) The irrelevancy of your "Native Indians" is still fascinating.  If I understand you correctly, individuals in the West (or certainly in America) have no claim to own "land" because of events in past centuries? Now, that seems like a fantastic 'adult' (non-Kindergarten) principle to base geopolitics on today.  We are all, in some sense, sitting on someone else's land, so to speak. And you think that you are beyond the Kindergarten blame game?

  5) For your information, I am not an 'American' either, at least not yet. But, unlike you, I don't jump so quickly on popular bashing bandwagons. Atheling seems to have gotten it about right, again, about you being a "self loather with a eurosneer twist". How else could one explain your (totally irrelevant) references to "crusading christians" and palefaces with "forked tongues"!!??  If you think that anybody in the world has a monopoly on "crusades" and "forked tongues", you still have a lot of work to do to graduate from Kindergarten and to live in the 21st century.

Kindergarten stuff #2

Submitted by marcfrans on Sat, 2006-11-25 23:06.

@ King Cobra

1) I am only 'going' by what you write here, and not by your "bio" (am not going to waste any time on that).

2) Oh, I did "follow" you all right!  So, now you are claiming that you were "praising" America when you made it "responsible" for the biggest "braindrain", instead of blaming the cultures from which those 'brains' are fleeing.  And, in the same breath you claim that you "hate hypocrisy"!!  I must say this is way beyond kindergarten stuff.  This is the stuff of blind adulthood.  I guess you are like the Mexican government and like western lefties who can't make a distinction between walls designed to keep people locked up (e.g. DDR and North Korea for instance) and walls designed to keep unwelcome guests out.  Or, you are like those naive-lefties who blame 'society' for crime, instead of blaming the criminals themselves.

3) I did ask you a simple question about selfresponsibility, in direct response to your charge (sorry hypocritical "praise") about that American "responsibility", but of course you did not give an answer, only a lot of irrelevant invective.

.......

Part 1

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sat, 2006-11-25 23:54.

Problem with people like you is that your head is stuck so far up your own backside that you can't judge anything,only one track is
visible to you, you must be suffocating in there, so pull it out and the world might look a bit different then.
As I said head up...., only a bafoon will enter an arena without knowing his opponent, and calling it a waste of time.
Again, you are so entrenched in the blame culture, that unless you criticise something or someone,you probably get indigestion, whose culture are you talking about? If you are talking about the Indian one, then they are not running away from their cultures but merely to redress the balance somewhat, which our ancestors and the Islamists robbed them for 10 or so centuries. So stop being so Pompous to so as to talk about cultures, as I said before, they were civilised when we were savages in the West, and their culture has stood the test of time, ours is already falling apart. You seem to have gross dislike for Islam it seems and yet have so much in common with their philosophies of hatred, one track thoughts etc, you should actually join them, you'll make good bed fellows

Human nature....no pretty sight (2)

Submitted by marcfrans on Sat, 2006-11-25 17:13.

@ King Cobra

....

A piece of advice.  Don't watch too many "western movies".   Most of them are produced by ignorant western perverse selfhaters who do you, among naive easterners, no favors. Although they do seem to provide you with the words, or the 'language', with which to display your own lack of "morality and ethical behavior".  And, by the way, how do you think these so-called "Native Indians" managed to almost totally wipe out any traces of the peoples who preceded them?  Surely not with "tongues" (forked or otherwise). Perhaps, I should draw you a picture?

If "brains" are fleeing certain cultures, perhaps you should ask yourself first why they are fleeing these "cultures", instead of always blaming 'the other guy', because that is soo.... kindergarten-ish!

SO PRESUMPTUOUS

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sat, 2006-11-25 20:40.

I am neither a naive easterner nor kindergarten- ish, but the last time I looked at myself in the mirror I was still, White,Christian and European, so there, you have been enlightened. And I gave up watching the Westerns a long time ago as soon as I woke up to realise that they were western propoganda, and what morality are you harping on about? the christian one, like the one of the Senator who couldn't keep himself away from page boys, or the one that has "PRIESTS" abuse young boys? So marcfrans save your lecture on MORALITY for those brain washed ones who would take in bullshit from those embroiled in the deluge of their own self polluting contemptuous Diarrhoea.

I guess just like the Crusading Christians did so what is your problem, it still doesn't make it your land, as they were there before you anyway, no need to be a sour loser.And let me remind you that the so called easterners were civilised long before our us,and could even be our ancestors and as far as I am aware they aren't fleeing their cultures, what you can't stomach is that they are running all over the likes of you, your lack of knowledge has just put you in the kidergarten firmly. Don't bother to reply, in that tone,as I left the Kinderegarten ages ago.

NO A REALIST, I REFER YOU TO

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sat, 2006-11-25 21:01.

NO A REALIST, I REFER YOU TO MY BIO, please do your home work before jumping into the smelly stuff.

Your ENVY AND HATRED IS BURNING MY KEYBOARD, PLEASE TAKE A COLD SHOWER.

Human nature

Submitted by marcfrans on Sat, 2006-11-25 17:07.

@ King Cobra

If Indian doctors (and/or others) want to emigrate to the USA (or anywhere else), how is that the 'fault' of the USA?  Could you please explain why the USA is "responsible" for the decisions of Indian doctors in India or elsewhere?  Are Indian doctors not responsible for their own decisions?  Should the USA make itself less 'attractive' in order not to attract people?  Whenever the USA refuses some people from India or elsewhere, the media in India (or elsewhere) will be full of charges of 'racism' and the like.  But when the USA admits Indian doctors it gets the likes of you blaming it for "immoral and unethical behavior".  So, the USA will get blamed no matter what it does, won't it? 

It is amazing that someone like you, who seems to deny the selfresponsibility of individuals for their own behavior or actions, has no qualms about blaming an entire civilisation ("the west") for "immoral and unethical behavior".  Talking about "character flaws" and "core islamic values"......you seem to have no shame, nor selfknowledge.

.....

KINDERGARTEN STUFF

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sat, 2006-11-25 20:57.

I believe you didn't follow that one, I was merely praising the USA in its attempt to accomodate IMMIGRANTS vs us EUROPEANS who complain about the Immigrants but never see their own behaviour, in that they don't attempt to integrate people whom they invite over here,unlike ,USA where as soon as one is given American Nationality from that moment onwards one is an American First and else Second, If you don't believe me visit my comment on \\sky.com\news and click on ADAM BOULTONS BLOG and read the comment headlined IMMIGRATION:AMERICA vs BRITAIN posted on the 17th Nov 2006.

Seems you have landed in feet first in the mire, mate,had you asked me nicely, I would have handed you my head on a silver platter, but you chose to attack me with presumptous accusations and what does "core islamic values" have to do with anything I have said. read my personal Bio, it will give you some background on me, so please in future, don't jump to conclusions.

As far as I am concerned, America has never abused it's immigration population, not even the Muslims in Chicago and elsewhere,even after 9/11 but my only criticism levied against it is it's support of Pakistan's Dictatorship when it goes into Iraq to instil Democracy, God I hate hypocricy.

European Doctors for Britain

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sat, 2006-11-25 15:02.

The USA is full of Immigrants and it is the by far the biggest country responsible for "brain drain" from all around the globe including INDIA in the recent years following on from places like Russia,Germany etc.

It hasn't done too badly in my opinion, what is hypocritical of the western world, that it has a streak of selfishness running through it's veins, when it needs something, it runs to the East and grabs everything and anything and yet once it has no use for anything it discards it as useless, sadly, in the case of "human beings" this is grossly immoral and unethical behaviour. So how is it better then the core Islamic values, that it claims to be fighting against?

Why is it that time and again the WEST looks to the EAST for Inspiration, acquires it, then abuses it. What is the flaw in it's character that makes it behave in this fashion?

Is it true what one sees in "Western Movies" where you hear the Native Indians say of the Invaders,that they speak with forked tongue?

Fault lies with land they flee from not too!!!

Submitted by FLLegal on Sat, 2006-11-25 23:19.

King Cobra stated:

"The USA is full of Immigrants and it is the by far the biggest country responsible for "brain drain" from all around the globe including INDIA in the recent years following on from places like Russia,Germany etc."

If I were to object to anything in that sentence it would be the word "responsible".

If when saying "responsible", you mean that the U.S. has lower taxes, more economic freedom, greater opportunities, and such similar statements, then we proudly plead guilty and hope such economic situation remains the same or even gets better not only for her citizens but for incoming immigrants as well.

But if you are using the word "responsible" as some nefarious, immoral, and/or evil ploy to attract professionals to the U.S., then you are barking up the wrong tree trying to find fault with the U.S.

The immigrants leaving for America would NOT have to leave their homelands, if their homelands offered them reasons for staying other than what they do offer, i.e. higher taxes, ever decreasing economic freedom, fewer opportunities, and such similar statements. And let's not forget the ever increasing Islamic invasion of Europe. It won't be long before (if not already) that immigrants will flee to America from Europe not for economic reasons, but for survival from the Islamic plague.

When people flee a land for whatever reason, it is not the fault of the land they flee to, but the land from which they run from.

No one forces them to come here, but governments in the lands in which they live force them to leave.

It is not the land, it is the people and environment

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sun, 2006-11-26 00:50.

I don't agree with you when you say it is the land that people flee from, it is certainly, not the land, but the people and environment, be it economic or physical.

I haven't left Britain yet, for any amount of Economic inducements, I have worked with quite a few American companies and Americans, and was offered positions to go over to the USA but it did not appeal to me, but a lot of my friends and relatives did. Even if (not that it will) the spread of Islam became a threat, I will not leave, I can give them just as good as I get, I don't feel personally threatned by Muslims though I do understand the fears people currently have about them, I am a very big critic of the Radicals among them and yet I have met and know quite a few muslims who don't themselves follow all the hype created by the Radical extremists, but they are living in fear and won't openly oppose them, and judging by what Saddam did I don't blame them.

I firmly believe that if one is of good and strong character and has faith in one's own ability, then no one can touch him, not even radical Islam, I laugh at them and radicals of any kind, as to me they are the ones running scared,it is like the prey that puts up a ferocious display to disuade its predator, but sooner or later the persevering one gets its victim.

No, I mean it is

Submitted by King_Cobra on Sun, 2006-11-26 00:22.

No, I mean it is responsible, in that it attracts a lot of people because of its treatment of immigrants that it invites, where as in Britain for example,where they don't integrate these people once they let them in, the failure in their treatment of these people as 1st class citizens gives rise to the ghettoisation within the country, recently, a dutch politician said precisely that, in relation to The Netherlands.

And the brain drain terminology was refering to what people accuse countries like America are doing, at the same time, not understanding why it so that people prefer to go to America instead to Britain for example.

And on the matter of Economic advantages & opportunities, I still believe it comes down to the fact that no matter how much one is offered in that area, but if one is treated as a 2nd class citizen then it outweighs the attraction.

And in so far as the case of those Indian Doctors is concerned, I believe we short changed them, they weren't Economic Migrants,merely over here to complete further studies to enhance their qualifications and as part of their curricular requirement needed to gain practical experience, hence were looking for in the main voluntary work.

I don't believe any country is to blame for migration, every one moves around for reasons to suit them, some are Economic migrants, some flee persecution and others just to flavour variety of life, but I get annoyed with those people who are themselves migrants but object and deny other immigrants the same opportunity (islamic migration excluded) in the case of my beloved Britain, our ancestors went out to far corners of the world and exploited them until they were dry, for our own benefits and then allowed immigration when it suited them and now the people can turn around and talk of repatriation. Bit Rich i'd say.

Well finally the UK woke up

Submitted by Malloc on Sat, 2006-11-25 09:15.

Well finally the UK woke up one morning (prob with a hangover) and realised that the BBC got it wrong. You don't think that the land that brought us a world empire can train some doctors? At least its not the Islamisation of UK doctors.

Save that England will have

Submitted by Voyager on Fri, 2006-11-24 19:12.

Save that England will have many unemployed doctors next year. with changes to University training which purs two years output competing for training places in 2007 there is the prospect of 27.000 candidates looking for 9.000 places as hospitals cut back funding for training places due to budget squeezes resulting from PFI.

The Working Hours directive will increase demands for doctors but budgets are not sufficient to pay them. It is not quite so simple as is made out, and many Britons go through the extremely competitive filter to enter medical school now to find they are loaded with student debt but with no employment prospects as trainees because under the new computer program hospitals cannot assess English-language skills not interview candidates since this would be discriminatory