I was not speaking about Mizo, i was speaking about Jews of goa and Cochin... and I am also proud on my ancestors, who had supported them..... when Muslims and Christians were attacking. research about "Jews of India".

and i am not like you, who will claim the whole thing of my ancestors, but will ignore there principles... but its strange, that you ignored the principle of humanity laid by Jesus. what so ever....you dream of a high heritage, or of a über mensch... but you will remain a normal human... like we all are.

beside this, thanks for DNA information about Mezo... i just missed the informations about what happened to the whole issue in the mean while.

and Yitzahk, where you claim you had given so much to humanity... then i really have to say thanks for your contribution in humanity, but still in see a racist inside your comments and ego... who speak of heritage, and think like he is speaking something like he is a übermensch...

and one more think, your link about "Re-converting".. also had a world... "Re".. though i condemn them too... as i beleive in freedom of religion. but let me ask you, who started this chain of conversion ? who is really to be blamed for this hate game... the übermensch like you... or the people who are starting a "RE-conversion".

Keep your hate heritage with you... i already had said, that i have to follow my own way of liberalism... what ever you have to speak, and do... its your problem. but something i found inside you is a fear, when you win something with force... then you fear to loose it next to someone who is stronger then you.....

but when you win something with love.... then things may seems going far away ... but the thing you win with love... never goes away from you....

and something about DNA... Indians have the most preserve DNA in world.. and here too... a bad news for you...
Its Indian DNA, which matches too close to West European DNA... again to think, was that a hit towards a far apart civilization of almost same Judeo-Christian cultural roots heritage... or something else...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory#Archaeogenetics

what so ever sir, I believe in one human.... against the origin, color, caste and so on... and i will work to unite them.... at least where you ask about my/Indian DNA. the Question comes back to you... Europe is full of divesity of DNA from different clans.. so which DNA you were pointing... i mean Italian, German, French...

believe me, Yitzak.... Hitler also spoke of überMensch concept, of his great heritage.... and even in Indian history, we also have peoples.. who spoke like that... including king Ashoka, and there were Mongols too....but it only brought destruction.

Hitler destroyed whole Europe...& today many Europeans don't believe in God.

Ashoka butchered many innocents, and we Hindus were unable to stop him.. because he used religion to justify his tyrant behavior & the spoke of his great heritage. it was the war of kalinga, when he understood that those whole things like heritage & due to him whole india converted to Buddhism.

Mongols also converted to Buddhism, and todays Mongolia shows that well... to attain peace, and for this they have to thought beyond Heritage. Mughals of India were out shoot of Mongol empire, and it became must for Mongols to discard Islam... because Islam was the driving force.. which had converted Human into Beast. Mongolians had understood that threat, from with in there own society... and had converted to Buddhism, but also make themselves defensive against such threat against classical Buddhism... and they were right... the crap left from mongol empire traveled to Indian subcontinent, and established Mughal Empire....

they killed 80 million peoples... this was the time Indian subcontinent move away from buddha principle... they had taken arms in hands to fight Islam... fall of todays Afgan, sindh, gujarat, Punjab or better say the cruelty shown by Mughals had taken whole indian subcontinent into chaos...

A normal human don't want to fight... they want to live in peace & Harmony. and really Christian roots have a great Balance... Balance that includes both defense and peace. Crusade occurred but to stop the danger from radical Islam.... it was Christians themselves who spoke of the danger of Nazism and facism....

What ever Yitzak, for sure i want to learn from Christians... but not something like all of your paths... but this great balanced you maintained for a long time between defense & peace. I also want to learn from failures others had made...

what ever you say Yitzak... what ever you think, .... I don't think like you... & i have my own way to go.....

http://www.islam-watch.org/AlamgirHussain/india.htm

This link to Hindus converting Christians is 5 years old. In any case, this is not representative of India or Hindus in general and is what could be defined as an anomaly.

You are trying your best to get linked with our heritage aren’t you? Very simple reality is some people just are ashamed of their own race and culture and you are one of them. I am proud of my heritage and my race whatever our past history was.
I would say instead of telling of this “He said She said” tales give us some concrete evidence of your fairy tales.
Nice try to link Judaism with India…. its laughable what you trying to do here. The Mizo tribe so called bnei menashe matter is more of a political matter then a religious one and it’s very complex matter. Bnei Mensahes links to Judaism were never proved that’s why they were not eligible to immigrate to Israel for a long time. Chief Sephardic Rabbi, Rabbi Amar only accepted those people who convert through Beth Din after completing conversion process.
Well just for your information my DNA can be traced back to my European ancestors regardless they were Polish, Greek, German or Roman its European blood. Polish, German, Italian whatever end of the day we are Europeans. The question do you know your DNA?
Well you are from oldest civilization so what? Feel proud of your civilization. I am proud of mine coz we gave so much to humanity. And that’s why we are superior then other civilizations. Everyone wants to follow our footsteps coz we are superior. If other civilizations were higher then our surely no one would wants to follow our footsteps. Perfect you teach your coming generation whatever you like. I surely don’t want to give them failed ideology of liberalism.
This simple google search took me to this link about Hindu converting Christians in India http://www.worthynews.com/news-features-3/re-convert-hinduism-india.html
I would say after reading lot of news I don’t believe that Hindu’s don’t believe in conversion.

Sweetheart.. thanks for reminding me..
>>Integration is only between people who share heritage and basic cultural identity.
and the 2nd point i have to place is..
>>Fabricated truth is not truth. I know it’s hard but you must accept reality

so how old is your Christian roots ? let me tell you we Indians share a Christian roots, far older then you Europeans...
roots laid by Saint Thomas.... and hindus had accepted him as reincarnation of Vishnu.. but Ach, it had ashmed you Europeans... who are proud of there superiority... that some Christians bapitised by Saint thomas were praying Jesus and Krishna next to each other, How come Saint Thomas do that? how come Christians pray with Pagans... I will only say you and your religious ego..

carry on, fight on name of God Yitzhak.... every one has full truth... the Question is, was that words of Bible or words of Koran... Bible says "Jesus son of God", and Koran says "No he is not". what ever, Yitzahk... it seems you are from east Europe...perhaps Poland, i wish you luck, perhaps you will also able to see words of Jesus.. where he tried to unite humanity... not to divide him on name of religion, culture, roots and so on.

Judeo traces, wow, i mean Still traces of Indo-Hebrew words can be traced in india, as well as in Afgan, in Pakistan and so on... still tribes of Jews can be found in india, which found India as most liberal place.. until Islam and Christians invaded india. the works of Church of Britain can be seen, where they forced many Jews to accept Christianity.

Greek-Romans heritage, well even in Greeks documents, you will find referance of Krishna ... you which heritage and roots are you speaking Yitzahk ? you can't prove Yitzahk, that the blood in your body is derived from them... its merely your illusion, or Perhaps you are thinking because you are Christian... and empire of Greeks and Romans converted to Christianity.... the way Iran believes that they are Aryans... though Aryan means Nobel... not a Race.

thanks again Yitzhak for sharing your heritage, and thanks for telling me that you are not liberal... as i m working to join liberals... who see others as human, and think beyond those egoistic ideologies of culture and religion.. like my culture, my heritage, my religion... in any case Yitzahk... i also know how to speak that language, and i can also speak that i am from the oldest civilization from world. but no yitzahk.... i don't want to divide peoples, i want to unite them...i want to bring them at a place, where they learn from all those great souls, like Jesus, Moses, Krishna, Rama... instead of fighting on name of prophets/incarnations.... and adding a tag.. that we are fighting on name of God.

anyways, Yitzahk... you are working to give a gift of fights to comming generation...
a gift of ego as your heritage. and i am trying to gift my coming generation a gift,
where they will learn from heritage, but will not be proud or guilty of something..
and not to claim the work, which was done by someone else.....

what ever Yitzahk... you will never understand me... as we both are 2 poles..

you think answer of radicalism is radicalism
OR
and i think, answer of radicalism is to unite all liberals and stand against radicalism.....

the answer is not present in religion, the answer is in us....
we need to immune our society from radical ideology...
and this is not a easy job.. there will be radial Hindus, radical Muslims, radical Christian as well as Radical Jews in way...
and now a surplus gift.... egoistic who believes in his Heritage...

Thanks.

and one more thing, Hindus don't beleive in conversion... and we are not from those who run conversion missionaries...
so if you need to fear, that thats from with in your Judeo-Christian-Islamic roots.... the trend is somewhere started by you guys...

anyways, it seems that here i am crossing my limits.. because i never wanted to blame/give proud to new generation for work done by old generation.... but it seems you wanted to hear this.... now happy! go and enjoy with your heritage... get it labeled on your head.

We had learned from our history that’s why we are superior civilization. I am certain that you don’t know anything about European History and our fight against Islamofascists.
Fabricated truth is not truth. I know it’s hard but you must accept reality.
Integration is only between people who share heritage and basic cultural identity. And truth is our society is based on Judeo-Christian & Greeko-Roman heritage. People of continent Europe share long history way before the arrival of Christianity and Judaism.
I am not a liberal and this liberalism is main cause of over decline. Anyway as I mentioned our civilization and people of this continent are not weak. We are taking action but we believe on democratic principles so that’s why it is bit slow but effective in long run. What we don’t like is this fear & hate mongersism. Yes Islamofascists are threat but painting a demagogic picture of that threat is ridiculous. Moors ruled Spain, Turks came closer to Vienna but Spain is still Christian country Vienna is still Christian they had tried whatever they could but couldn’t change the soul of this continent we stood up to that threat on our own. No one from East came to help us we faced & counter the threat without any Eastern help. I am just trying to tell you we are not depending on anyone to speck for us or help us. We were here as Christian continent, we are here as Christian continent and we will be here as Christian continent with our Judeo-Christian heritage.

So I assume you don’t believe that Saudis have special relationship with US administration? And they are at same level with administration just like they are with Chinese French etc…? Well reality and overwhelming evidence specks opposite. Perhaps you should enlighten me about the spin Mr. Gold had put in his book. And I would love to see some concrete proofs against Mr. Gold’s evidence. Oh and what about Mr. Craig Unger’s Book?
What would be more ridiculous then wasting Tax payers $ on stupid assessments on state department reports every year? Why do we need stupid reports from pencil pushers at Foggy Bottom? Don’t we already knew the sick***** behind 9/11? What more proof we need to bomb the crap out of Saudis? What are we waiting for? Another slaughter of our innocent civilians planed by Pakistani’s funded by Saudis……?
We should be in Pakistan not in stupid Afghanistan. We should be in Saudi Arabia not in Iraq. Sky won’t fall if we eliminate threat from Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia perhaps world would be a better place without this true axis of evil.

Well Yithak,

Yes, Democratic India and Western Democratic concept is far different, but not the concept of democracy in itself.

So to whom should we blame for this Yatzahk.... unfortunately Yatzahk, there is no one left to blame... those who set the Nazi elements free after WW2 were Europeans...& new generation had nothing to do with them.

Yithak, you European usually say, that its south asians, its immigrants, the source of terror.... but when we speak against it.. then you never want to join our hands... then go and fight on your own... I will only pray, that god help Europe. But surely, you Europeans had not learned anything from your own history.

>>Rejecting fear & hate mongering is not state of denial.
Yes, but Rejecting Truth ? that of course is a state of denial yitzhak.

Anyways Jitzahk... as you say, Fight your own war... then i think, integration hardly make any sense. or does it make any sense?..... let East fight west, people fight on name of culture, on name of ideology.... I was trying to build a common platform, a stage where people understand each other. but i think its stupidness, i need to fight my own war.

Yitzahk.... i am not fighting any religion as such... but its an Ideology. Radicalism is like a mental diseases; and the problem with Islam is, that they are shielding it... As a Hindu i do condemn Radical Hindus... but if you think that i have to fight my war, without holding hands of other liberals... then i think, Integration hardly make sense....

one thing i want to let you know, that every human make mistake.... but the real person is who learn from mistakes.... Europe make me realize, that if you dont raise voice against injustice.. then you are risking your demise... and i had raise my voice, but its strange... that for whom i am raising my voice, want to suicide....

Bye Yitzhak,
and Bye BJ and Europe...

God only help those, who help themselves...
and there is no evil in human history, which disappeared on its own accord...

Perhaps Europeans need a bit doses of Wisdom, and neutral analysis...

Let Europe fight its own battle..
thanks for sharing your historical datas...
if any time, you wake up... then i will always be there...

@ Yitzak
 
I must observe that you did not attempt to answer any of the three specific questions I asked you.   The conclusion is therefore obvious.  You throw around easily wild charges, but cannot back them up with serious arguments.  This discussion is therefore pointless.

For your information, I have no 'beef' with Mr Dore.  On the contrary, if anything I am quite sympathetic to his general goals, and certainly share his concerns to preserve Israeli democracy, the only one in the Middle East.  At the same time I am smart enough to know that he is an Israeli 'advocate', and that he fights against Arab influence in the US, and particularly wants to undermine that influence as it pertains to American politicians.   I am quite aware of the "friendly relations" between the House of Saud and some Bush family members.   I repeat, you must try to be realistic about such matters.  Virtually all countries attempt to have friendly relations with the House of Saud.  The Bushies are no great exception in this respect.  The reality is, however, that both countries share a number of very important 'interests'.  This does not prevent the US government from making an accurate assessment about the 'nature' of the Saudi regime and political system, as various State Department 'reports' regularly attest.   

P.S. I advise you to take a good look at pictures of the Saudi King 'kissing' Chirac, versus him kissing GWBush, and see which one of these 3 persons looks the most 'awkward' in connection with all this fake 'closeness'.  

Again your posting is without any sense. But there is one thing, which I think you tried in your post, is very cleverly you pointed a finger at our society. I am sensing you are charging us for throwing ya’ll next to barbarians (I assume you mean Islamofascists), which is utterly ridiculous.
Western democracy and so-called democratic India are two very different things it’s laughable when people try to equate India with our democratic system. West and East are two very different people very different thinking and very different understanding of whole bunch of things.
Europe is not in state of denial. Europe is perfectly aware of the situation. Rejecting fear & hate mongering is not state of denial. The fact of the matter is your postings are full of cowardly hatred. Fight your own War we are not here to baby-sit other nations.

I recommend you to read HATRED’S KINGDOM by Israeli Ambassador to UN Dore Gold & House of Bush House of Saud by Craig Unger. Since you are not well informed about house of Saud and administration.

believe me Sam, you will not like to see Radical Hindu...

this is the worst you can wish about....

Check this out.

http://music.guardian.co.uk/rock/story/0,,2066036,00.html

'...One shudders to think about what much of the media (and education system) today is doing to young western minds, like yours.'

You may be on to something here Marc. Last night I was having a conversation with an undergraduate in International Economics who had just bought some Euros for his school field trip to Switzerland!

Perfektm: 'anyways, i do respect muslism... but not shia or sunni... but Durze, Bahai and so on...
I even don't respect radical Hindus, because the frame i had taken is the frame of humanity....'

SI: If you are a moderate then I cringe to think what a radical Hindu is.

nice try sam, this time a new way to try to bring me in a state to do not reply.. anyways

>>This was a complex war which involved the Maronites, Druze, Sunni, Shia, PLO, Syria, Israel, Moscow backed communists, France, USA, Bekaa Valley drug smugglers;

Oh Sam, it seems that this time you have tremendous informations... so just share up!.. and also share the role of tablighi Jammat and Saudi's in whole equation...

Anyways SAM... the problem against comes down, that USA and Russia had gone in war during cold war, but it was a war between states... not between peoples living inside countries...

Shia and Sunni kills each other, to prove there own supremacy principle...the imperailistic goal is so high, that they kill everyone... thus asserting there no ideology can exist beyond theres.

the old tribal rules, Blood for blood, eye for eye.... and no respect from human can still be seen. In short, one Mad mullahs clan kills other.

Durze against other Muslims, are hidden to come out and speak... but they are loyal to country they live in...

Syria? which Syria are you speak... Syria of ASSYRIAN
CHRISTIANS.... or Syria of facist Baath party...

and in case of Israel... its the only democracy in heart of Arabia.

so the best way to analyze a conflict is to break it into parts, and analyze every factor and the superimpose the pulse of each factor on it...

what else..... next time when you speak out... do realize what you are pointing, i was pointing one of the centrifugal force of all conflicts.....thats the Radical Islamic movement, either from Sunni or Shia wing, hardly matter... as both are influenced by a 6th century phyco nomad, who was not only a pedophile, but a raper, warlord, looter... and what else you can think of.

Attributing the brutal Lebanese civil war to 'the Muslims' is once again deceitful and fraudulent. This was a complex war which involved the Maronites, Druze, Sunni, Shia, PLO, Syria, Israel, Moscow backed communists, France, USA, Bekaa Valley drug smugglers; where fighting alliances shifted continuously and nearly every party had allied with and subsequently betrayed every other party at least once.

You would do well to talk about something you actually know and care about. Although, I must admit you put a nice spin on this one though....

Here's something to cheer you up this weekend. You need to put the volume up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfwRb_XKFvA&mode=related&search=

@ Yitzak

I fail to see the relevance of your superfluous 'ad hominem' attack in the context of the subjects previously discussed under this thread.   Maybe, you can rescue a bit of your moral standing by attempting serious answers to the following 3 questions. 

1) Can you be a bit more specific about my purported "fantasy world"?   Throwing wild empty charges about is always easy; backing them up with specific arguments and facts, is another matter.
 
2) Can you be a bit more specific about my purported "state of denial"?  What is it that you think that I am denying?  Throwing wild empty charges....etc... 

3)  What do you mean by "Connections between House of Saoud and House of Bush....are not 'just friendly', etc..."?   Could you be a bit less cryptic and a bit more specific? 
 

For your information, I do not blame "media" for "every ill".  But, one must hope that you are aware of the tremendous influence "media" have on the public's imagination and on public discourse.  I certainly do believe in most 'facts' reported by most western media, but I take the 'spin' and commentary that typically accompanies such reporting with a deep grain of salt.  I advise you to be more sceptical too.   For example, when the BBC reports that a bomb exploded today in Bangkok, Thailand, I believe that "a bomb exploded in Bangkok".  But, when I listen to the commentary given by its 'typical' correspondent in connection with such a fact, I usually find that it is often seriously distorted due to severe ideological bias.  There are many subjects where I can not immediately make a serious judgement about any specific media bias, but there are also specific subjects (including countries) on which I consider myself well-informed, and when I observe how biased certain major media reports on those specific subjects are, I know that we all must learn to make a distinction between 'facts' and 'opinions'.   People, like Iqbal and yourself, who still have much difficulty with making that kind of distinction, should make a big effort in learning how to do that....in your own interest!   The biggest obstacle in that respect is often the failure to remain intellectually-honest, or honest to oneself.    

Perhaps Yitzak,

you forgot to analyze, that who is suffering ? is it Indian, or is it only that specialize group of peoples... which was against Nazis, and/or had gone against Nazi ideology after WW2.

Europe fought its war in past, and Europe fought its war in WW2 too..... but do you know, throwing away others next to barbarians is the worst one can think of..... I m not defending West, but i am defending Democratic structure.... the only hope left for us....

and sorry to say, that Europe is still in state of denial... that its a simple war, as it was somewhere in past...

I gotta say that your posting don’t make much sense. As I had mentioned previously western Civilization is not so weak to counter threat from Islamofascist. Your postings portray westerns societies, as we are just full of sissy boys. & I find quit offensive and am sick n tired of such portrayal of our societies. And we certainly don’t need any Indian Serbian or whatever for defense of our society and civilization. EUROPE HAD FACED ISLAMIC THREAT BEFORE THIS IS NOTHING NEW…..I guess ya’ll forgotten how we had defended ourselfs throughout the history…..

In Most of your postings you seems to blame media for every ill. So I assume you don’t believe on anything media brings you right? Or you just believe on the stuff which fits in your fantasy world?
The connections between House of Saud & House of Bush’s are no secret. And are not “just friendly” well of course the ties between US government & house of Saud would look “ just friendly” to ones in state of denial.

@ Iqbal

1) As a general rule, it is not wise to divulge much 'private' information on a public forum on the internet.  We should both take that advice.  So, I regret that I can/will not satisfy your curiosity here.
 
2) It is profoundly sad that your "old man", like so many others, has painted a picture to his son based on superficialities (like "stunning...girls, bars, nightclubs, etc...").  In the 1970's and still early 1980's, Baghdad might have been a "modern" city in a number of superficial physical respects, but it was also the center of a society based on great injustice, extreme cruelty and all-pervasive fear.  To survive in that environment, one had to constantly close one's eyes, certainly one's mouth, and hope not to draw the attention of anyone important in the ruling fascist Tikriti 'nomenclatura', in order to avoid falling victim to its whims and vicious arbitrariness.  

3) One shudders to think about what much of the media (and education system) today is doing to young western minds, like yours.   And the terrible price that society will have to pay for this in the future.  (Hint: the House of Saoud is just as "friendly" with Chirac, Blair, Musharraf, Mubarak, etc...as they are with "Bush and his - presumed - zio con oil buddies".  Although they did realise who could effectively save them from Saddam in his heyday.  As always, they are very concerned about whoever rules Persia, and they are quietly reaching out to China today in case America falters in 'restraining' the ayathollahs.)  

>>Incidentally, just to clarify; I am of mixed race; (Scottish and Pakistani Kashmiri); I am a 22 year old engineering student. I plan to go out to the ME or Latin America after I finish my studies.

Anyways, my guess was absolutely right Sameer, anyways what ever... I will prefer that you go to ME, though Latin America is also full of Nazis, who relocated. But still liberalism exist in Latin America...

so Go to ME, see how people suffer.... see what really radicalism means...... then think back, what was better.... a Democratic society, which Muslims had rejected in there imperial dream... to mount Caliphet. or was that the facist state of Arabia...

anyways sir, the conflict between Saudi royal family, and ....... and what else, your ancestors were also hindu, either raped, or buchtered, or threatened by radical Muslim invaders.....

Kashmiri Muslims were the most liberal Muslims, but the gateway of hell what Amin al husseini and deobandis had opened in Afganistan, Pakistan and in Kashmir.... that in itself need no

anyways, i do respect muslism... but not shia or sunni... but Durze, Bahai and so on...
I even don't respect radical Hindus, because the frame i had taken is the frame of humanity....
but it seems, you Muslims are so blind in your immperial goals.... that instead of feeling ashamed or condeming terrorism... you are supporting it.

And the problem with Saudi king and supporter of Haus of saud ... is the problem of control of power. King don't want just to be a sitting puppet.... but supporter want to decide the rules... anyways None of them is liberal, as radicals are close to Deobandis, and liberal Arab blog is Tablighi Jammat... and both are active in killing.

In case, if you are thinking of real ME groups.. like Muslim brotherhood... then do consider the base of Wahabi Islam.... Al-Wahab, who himself was indocrinated by South Asian(from sindh)..... who was just spreading the words of radical islamic movements of indian.

It amazes me how people .... Islamophobia --- bla bla bla ---- unreliable Muslim baiting propaganda websites. I don’t even bother to read your links anymore.

don't worry, i have one more link for such sitation....

It amaze me, how Muslims like you stay hard on your shameful acts... infact instead of condeming your Mistakes, you repeat them..... the negation of Muslims is the worst one can think of.... so the 1st thing is, are Muslims reliable as such.... before comming to the point, of which media link is reliable... and which is not.

so what makes a source reliable ? is it a stamp of Global Media.... or is banning Islamofacism makes a source reliable.

anyways, In case of reuters, or BBC or any such source.... which you might say are reliable... then go check this page

anyways sir, the sources i mentaioned are as much reliable... as much any of the sources you Quoted ever in BJ..... so stop shouting in me... rather prove i am wrong, and this time it seems you are loosing your front.

>>Another thing, using the worst elements of ultra-conservative Wahhabbi Saudi society

I am sorry, but i am hardly aware of any liberal society from Arabia.... In short, if there exist any..... then that they are species facing extinction....

>>Also, it would help if you educate yourself - Saudi society with a population of 25 m (around 1.5% of the entire Muslim population) is not representative of European Muslims or the Islamic world in general.

I am not speaking specifically about Arabic peoples, i am speaking about 1.8 billion Muslim world. hardly any moderate muslims speaks against terror, and those who speaks... the face so called "Honor killing". In case, we all know Sam that you are just a Jihadi scum... spreading Free propoganda for them.

anyways Sam... 1.8 billion muslim out there, 15 to 20 % are radical, then **so called, self proclaimed moderate like you constitute 50-70 % extra.... so lets analyze yourself, we have millions of Nazis Free out in our democracy, and then we billions of those, who had sympathy with Islamofacist. so in short will have more then 1 billion Islamofacist and its Propoganda section already at work. and what worst, they are spread out all over.

>>And yes, I do agree that Saudi society has many problems much of it caused by the ultra conservative Wahhabism promoted by the House of Saud (who are US allies and good friends of Bush and his zio-con oil buddies incidentally, which you conveniently forget to mention.)

What do you think, what we are doing here..... giving nobel peace prize and boosting our Politicians ...Islam means surrender, and we are not here to surrender..... and we know well what this Freedom cost to us....

anyways have you ever heard of "Clean technologies" and "terror free oil"...

>>Your energetic and virulent Islamophobia would make Goebbels proud of you!

Dictionary.com describe phobia as

a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.

so the word Islamophobia, Let me put some rationality to it.... to prove, who is really upto a propoganda, and on whom gobbels will be Proud about.

In case, to make gobbels feel real proud, i am linking here a RELIABLE source that highlights relation between Islamic terrorism to Gobbels/Nazis... even after WW2, when every one was against Nazis, this was a heaven of Nazis. so now everyone knows, on whom Gobbels will be proud on. his Muslim friends, or those who fought Nazis and decided to liberate this world.... And decided to mount democracy.

Anyway at least now all peoples in BJ knows, that it’s a part of same threat. Now let me come to the other part, that is giving rationality to the cause, so breaking the mis-concept of Islamophobia.....

just check this article, and especially this paragraph....

In the early '70s, Lebanon was a majority Christian country . . . a republic very much like America. We prospered. We focused on growing our economy. We were multicultural, fair and tolerant, and had an open border policy. We welcomed everybody into our country, because we wanted to share the westernizations we had created in the Middle East. . . . Sadly, many people who came didn't want to assimilate and adopt westernizations, but wanted to drag us down to their tribal Islamic culture. . . . By 1974, Christians stopped travelling. We became prisoners in our homes and cities because Muslims would set up fly-by-night checkpoints . . . . Our religion is written on our national ID. . . . So, Muslims would stop cars, look at their IDs and if a Christian family was travelling, they would shoot them in cold blood. The whole family. . . . Extremist Muslims started coming from all around the Arabic world to fight alongside the Muslims in Lebanon.

I mean, the story is similar all over, in Serbia, in india.. in any other country you can see.... You Islamofacist grow like Mosquitoes (a word referred by a Imam, so not my invention and thus not a abuse). Really letting Mosquitoes breed in a clean open society means to let spread of Malaria, and other various diseases in a healthy democratic structure. The main goal of Mosquito is only to reproduce, spreading diseases and sucking blood.

What ever, all that had happened in India, in Lebanon, in Serbia... we will not let it repeat in West.
and We means, the Non-Muslims from Asia, because Liberal Muslims seems to be not willing to speak against the radical Islam. And this time we will fight back.

@ Marc

Good morning Marc!

‘I am well aware of both "the wealth and education" of some Irakis (having been professionally involved with the country in the mid-1980's, and luckily escaping from both Iranian bombs as well as from then internal opposionists, either shia or kurd, at the time in Baghdad).’

Wow! This really made me sit up and take notice! That is fascinating - Kudos to you!

Just out of curiosity; What were you doing there? Were you there in a military capacity or as a diplomat or in the oil industry? How did you find living and working with ordinary Iraqis? Did you enjoy your time? Did you make many friends? Are you Dutch or Belgian? Did you have any run-ins with high ranking Baathists? What were they like?

My old man spent a year travelling from Glasgow to Islamabad in 1976 and said that Beirut, Damascus, Baghdad and Tehran were wonderful cities back then. Told me that the girls in Beirut and Tehran (as well as Rome) were absolutely drop dead stunning – mini skirts and high fashion etc. Also mentioned that there were nightclubs, discotheques, restaurants, bars dotted around and many Middle Easterners enjoyed a lifestyle that many Scottish and Irish people could only dream of. Apparently, according to him, Baghdad was the most distinguished and modern of all ME cities.
Incidentally, just to clarify; I am of mixed race; (Scottish and Pakistani Kashmiri); I am a 22 year old engineering student. I plan to go out to the ME or Latin America after I finish my studies.

@ Perfektm.

Good morning!

Your energetic and virulent Islamophobia would make Goebbels proud of you!

If true, this rural illiterate conservative Islam that you speak of is alien to the overwhelming vast majority of Muslims, particularly those that live in the West.

It amazes me how people like you never get tired of repeatedly posting the same trashy Islamophobia with yet more cut and paste links to various unreliable Muslim baiting propaganda websites. I don’t even bother to read your links anymore.

Another thing, using the worst elements of ultra-conservative Wahhabbi Saudi society and war ravaged Iraq as a proxy for the ENTIRE Islamic world is both deceitful and fraudulent. You have no interest in engagement or reconciliation – you are at best a rabble rousing prejudiced chicken hawk...SQUAWK.

Also, it would help if you educate yourself - Saudi society with a population of 25 m (around 1.5% of the entire Muslim population) is not representative of European Muslims or the Islamic world in general. And yes, I do agree that Saudi society has many problems much of it caused by the ultra conservative Wahhabism promoted by the House of Saud (who are US allies and good friends of Bush and his zio-con oil buddies incidentally, which you conveniently forget to mention.)

Uranium asked: I just was wondering, "What good Islam brought to this world ?"

The pope answered this question in his Regensburg address : nothing.

The answer is here...

http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=12648&sec=39&con=22

:) perhaps this answer, why there is no "Mohammed", "Muhammed", "Islam", or "Muslim"

because there is no freedom of Speech, as well as there is no respect for human life...

only things which comes out of ISlam is Fatwa...

Fatwa that force sheeps to wear diapers...

or Fatwa which warned street vendors not to place tomatoes beside cucumbers because the vegetables are different genders.

Or even to Ban "X" alphabet.....

I just was wondering, "What good Islam brought to this world ?"

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/general-metal-discussion/
228036-heavy-metal-vs-christianity-heavy-metal-vs-islam.html 

(had to split the URL into 2 lines)

Its a little off topic but very interesting. Some of the replies of the metal heads give are just pathetic. They claim to be free thinking "raging against the so called bullshit in society" but at the end of the day they are just spineless cowards with no perception of a genuine threat. Its kind of ironic that metal is huge in scandanavia where self-loathing has reached fever pitch. 

" can lead to conspiracy theories, to misunderstandings, even to world wars. "

--> or to word wars !

@ Iqbal
I am well aware of both "the wealth and education" of some Irakis (having been professionally involved with the country in the mid-1980's, and luckily escaping from both Iranian bombs as well as from then internal opposionists, either shia or kurd, at the time in Baghdad).    
The fact still remains that the 'typical' Iraqi refugee to Sweden is not in any position to bring "wealth and jobs" to Sweden.  And, it is certainly not 'news' if they would work and participate in economic life.  I am sure there are exceptions, but - being exceptions - they only confirm the 'rule'.   No need to put your head in the sand about that, nor about anything else.
And no, contrived 'positive' stories about immigrants, from the pen of naive-left journalists with an ideological agenda, are certainly not "fantasy" nor "exceptions".  Indeed, the western media are full of them.  Most of them show a lack of 'perspective' and of a sense of 'proportionality'.
Finally, I am not anti-immigration as such.  I am against illegal immigration and against 'imposed' immigration, either from above (western ruling elites) or from abroad.   Just like you determine who you invite to your house, the Swedish people should be able to determine who comes to theirs. 
 
@ Armor
The citation you used was mine, not pvdh's.  He repeated it (with the proper quotation marks) without any comment.  That is the sort of cryptic behavior that can lead to conspiracy theories, to misunderstandings, even to world wars.   

Sam... this is what i say negation....

anyways with Harold Shipman... the figure is 215, not 400... and beside this, and most important... if you really want to make a comparision... then check the time span too...

Salim buchered 250 peoples (Infidels) in 4 months.... that means more than 2 Infidels every day.... and previous scores are still missing.

Where in case of Harold ..... We Non-Muslims have condemned harold.... you, As a Muslims is defending salim.... and you can ask anyone here... what your words are representing...

and what else, we get Muslims taxi drivers behaving crazy like Salim all over world... in America, a Taxi driver drove over others because they refused to convert to Islam...

In Europe, you Muslims are behaving like Freaks... when you even say NO to blinds carrying guiding dogs...

And what else, the central theme of all facist ideology comes back to a book wrote by a 6th century pedophile warlord ..........

if Job means looting, terrorism, mounting a parallel Mafia, Rape, Murders.... then yes, Iraqi had contributed a lot in Jobs.....

Or perhaps, you are speaking about security jobs...... yes, a rise in security jobs was observed in Europe in recent years...... thanks to you Muslims immigrants... now Europe need more police mans, more security analysers....

and most important....now we need some one to protect meat.... because the Arabic cats can not control themselves next to open meat....

Uh Oh.... i have more on words on Civilization........

We, the Muslims's are most civilized...and are the repersentatives of the Most Peaceful countries in this world....

What else... some more Islamic referanced can be found here....

Britain’s ‘Hats off to Crime’ campaign [which has now been extended nationwide] means that people are routinely asked to remove any headgear which shields their face from CCTV cameras in commercial premises - including an increasing number of buses. As you can see from the copy of the campaign poster shown here burqas are seemingly exempt.

pvdh: "The difference between closed minds and open minds is that the former only see what they want to see and the latter will 'call it as they see it' . "

If you think Iraqis are bringing wealth to Sweden, you must be out of your mind. You are the one ignoring reality, like leftists do. It means you are blind, not open-minded.
The media won't even publish the rape and murder statistics by race. In the same way, they will systematically suppress honest information about the impact of immigration on the economy, while complacently publishing tribunes by the likes of Rami Abdelrahman ("Iraqis bring wealth - and jobs - to Sweden").
If you want to know more about the real world, you'll need to trust your own eyes and rely on your personal judgment (it is going to be a problem in your case) and on information and analysis provided by people who are not subsidized by western governments, and usually not allowed in the media.

The serial killer story is quite horrific. However, one does need to examine the circumstances around his 'confession' before concluding anything.

In any case, 'Salim' didn't quite get anywhere near the 400 set by Dr Harold Shipman.

 Total Ban on Immigration from all non-European countries
is only solution

I think you will be surprised at how well educated and wealthy many Iraqis are. But of course the notion that Iraqi immigrants are doing well for themselves and bringing jobs to Sweden is something that just cannot be entertained by you in any capacity whatsoever. Hence, your reference to 'fantasy' and 'rare exception' etc. Off course there are lots of poor refugees. However, the story highlights that given the chance and a fair opportunity many immigrants do well and do succeed.

Marc,

I see that the rabble that is called Perkeftm is back spewing his bigoted agenda.

Anyway;

‘A manifest America-hater…’ – An America hater I certainly am not. Neither am I a US hater or hater of Americans. A hater of the vicious brand of Zio-conservatism that wreaks havoc almost everywhere in the world... guilty as charged!

Regarding Pakistan and democracy – I mention the USA because realistically they are the only country that could invoke any real change in the near future and quite possibly the only country which the Pakistani military and people would ‘listen’ to.

‘As if the Pakistani army were the sole - or even the major - real obstacle to democracy in Pakistan, instead of the 'cultures' of Pashtuns, Sindhi, Baluchis, etc....’

Partly agree. The tribal culture, parochialism and petty traditionalism seem to rule the minds of most Pakistanis. They would do well to break from their ghetto mentality.

‘Yet one doesn't see them emigrate to East Asia, for instance, were there are also great economic opportunities. ‘

I think you will find that in recent years larger numbers of Arabs are emigrating to Russia, Eastern Asia (Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan, Singapore etc) and Latin America as opposed to Europe and N America. For example, a Venezuelan friend recently told me that Caracus is seeing a considerable influx of Lebanese and Syrians. Of course, there are established Pan-Arab communtites in Venezuela and Colombia but this is proof that people will go where they see economic opportunity.

‘The most recent spate of jihadism of the last quarter century or so, did NOT originate in poor isolated Indonesian islands or economically backward villages in Arabia or the Indian subcontinent. On the contrary, it is the direct result of great 'wealth' deriving from natural resources (oil and gas) in the Middle East.’

Disagree. Will not budge on this point. The origins of today’s ‘Jihaids’ can be traced back to the Afghan Mujahideen which as you may well know was a CIA/US backed proxy militia. Yes, the Saudis provided money but only under pressure from the Amercians.

Your comments completely shows, that you have no respect for human life and human sufferings....

You said "A much better Story"... it shows you enjoy such horrible things....

In reply to your Question, i will say, the way your Muslim teach your hate Propoganda to youths, and childrens as young as 3 yrs old... makes you Muslims "uncivilised"....
the way you Muslims enjoy such barabaric attack of a "cannibal" contributes to "uncivilised form of behaviour".....
and the way you Muslims use negation against your own crimes, instead of condeming them... shows that Muslims are "Uncivilized"
the way you Muslims butcher, slaughter, hack down innocents on name of God, is the most uncivilised form of behaviour for any Human civilization in Modern world...

As i said Iqbal... I am also a south Asian... thats why i was wondering something on your comment... as you Quoted...
'Iraqi immigrants are bringing wealth and jobs to Sweden’

so want to ask you, how much legalized immigrants with high level education comes to Europe, how much of you get Integrated here .... what ever, instead of thanking sweden for the shalter they have given to war torn Iraqis... you Muslims are claiming back... that you are bringing wealth and jobs......

Hey Iqbal, you muslims Immigrants only suck taxes..... and even after doing this, you are not thankful for west. it was west, which had holded your hand, when barbarians were killing you.... it was west, which offered Armenians, kurds a shalter.... but you guys are so blind in your radical Islam.....

dogs and chimps are loyal and thankful... but Muslims ?

and one more thing... I am a Immigrant too.... but i respect West, because against you uncivilized Islamofacist.. at least West respect human life.....

Anyways, had anyone noticed... that against other previous coverage, Media was trying to hide the identity of the criminal in the article Sam was pointing......... Can that be due to self sensorship offered by Media to defend Islam... or was the self sensorship was due to Growing Islamophobia globally due to "Uncivilized behavior of Muslims"

anyways Check this too... the Most prolific killer ever..... Anyways the news goes unheard because Media was afraid to use "M" word,

against previous such cases, in which the whole biodata of a person is printed in media, including religion and sect, this time media tried to hide the details...... but at last, some hat tips were laid by someone on Dig....

@ Iqbal

1) Without 'honesty' there can be no serious discussion.  Conscious distortion of 'facts' and events is dishonest.  The case of the Dutch presumed "cannibal" is not a case of eating someone, but of biting someone.  It is a 'fluke', an exception, it is nutty.  It is not a societal problem!

2) The problem of burkas on busses, planes, etc... is increasingly becoming a real societal problem in a number of western countries, and certainly at a time of genuine terrorist threats.   While I do not know the specifics of the Malmo busdriver, the case does represent real dilemmas for businesses and public authorities.  And I certainly can feel sympathy for a busdriver who is faced with such a practical problem and gets 'punished' for exercising common sense.  On top of that, he gets punished by public authorities who themselves are directly responsible for creating this kind of 'problem' in the first place through nutty policies of immigration and 'multiculturalism'. 

3) If "Iraqi immigrants are bringing wealth and jobs to Sweden" that would not be a problem, and in that sense would not be particularly relevant to comment on.  However, it is most unlikely that the typical Iraqi refugee would be able to do such a thing.  How could he/she?   You think there are no exchange controls in Iraq today?  You think one could easily dispose of property in Iraq today and transfer the proceeds to abroad?    I think you would have to be at least closely related to Talabani, the Ayatholah Sistani, or M Al-Sadr!.   So, if there is such a genuine case of an Iraqi refugee in Sweden it will be a rare exception.  Most likely the story is a typical fantasy-story concocted by a naive-left journalist with an ideological 'agenda'.   

"The difference between closed minds and open minds is that the former only see what they want to see and the latter will 'call it as they see it' (whatever the source). "

Sam said : Now why is this article not commented on ?

Because it's a blatant lie.  Political correctness gone mad.  Immigrants to Sweden costs that country more than 100 billion SKr. per year and is almost bringing it to bancruptcy.  

Marc, I merely highlighted the cannibal story as I found it quite fascinating. Indeed, contrary to what you think, I am in favour of banning the burka (full niqab) and do not believe that such attire has any place in Western society. However, wearing a burka and eating a fellow human being doesn't quite fit the same 'uncivilised form of behaviour' now does it?

Another thing, if you click on the same link you will find another story …..’Iraqi immigrants are bringing wealth and jobs to Sweden’. Now why is this article not commented on?

Iqbal's 'Pavlovian' response to the burka-story from Malmo was as predictable as the next terrorist atrocity.   The difference between closed minds and open minds is that the former only see what they want to see and the latter will 'call it as they see it' (whatever the source). 
 
It is indeed unconscionable that busdrivers would have to transport people that are not identifiable (and therefore can not be held accountable 'ex post' for possible misdeeds).  At least it ought to be so in a civilised society, particularly one that is openly being threathened by a merciless enemy.    

And if there are any "Dutch cannibals" left, they should be equally condemned for uncivilized behavior. 

Iqbal's behavior, i.e. invoking one form of uncivilized behavior as an 'excuse' for another form of uncivilized behavior, surely is a kind of a pathology that needs a name.  Any takers?
 

'A bus driver in Malmo has been suspended...'

Click on the 'been suspended' link and halfway down there is another story; 'Dutch cannibal eats drivers nose during tulip delivery.'

Thats a much better story than this tired old drivel.