Wisdom and Naivety

A quote from Lawrence Auster at his blog, 19 December 2007

As for [Patrick J.] Buchanan, on the positive side, Buchanan's central theme [in his new book Day of Reckoning: How Hubris, Ideology and Greed Are Tearing America Apart] is in my view the central theme, namely that if a country fails to make its own countryhood primary in its politics, its economics, and its moral system, everything that the country does only serves its own undoing.

On the negative side, Buchanan remains deeply naive on the subject of Islam, refusing to see it as a threat to America; or, like the neocons, he says that Islam is an existential danger to Europe, but not to America. As though the Islamization of Europe would not represent the most profound threat to America.

Anti-European racism # 2

@ Armor

 

1) I cannot speak to any of your opinions about 'Jason', nor do I speak for him.  You have to take these up with him, not in an insulting rant addressed to me.

2)  I have clearly explained why I considered  Buchanan anti-semitic, and I have also stated that his views on that score have moderated considerably in recent times, at least his public views.

3)  I have never called Buchanan a "racist", and I have never heard him talk about immigration and other issues in a 'racist' way.   You ought to be ashamed for even suggesting that I did. Buchanan talks in terms of 'culture' (particularly in terms of "Third World cultures" that are at odds with American values and the 'creed' of its Constitution).  By contrast, you have formulated your objections on numerous occasions in 'racist' ways on this blog, and there is no point in repeating all this.  You simply refuse to make the proper distinction - which Buchanan does make - between race and culture.

4) I agree with you that immigration in both Europe and the USA needs to be curtailed drastically from its recent levels.  And you know very well that I think that immigration needs to be legal, decided 'democratically' by the parliaments of host countries, exclusively 'controlled' by host countries (not imposed on them by outsiders nor immigrants themselves), and needs to be 'structured' in the interests of the host countries and of nobody else.  I believe in cultural self-determination.

5)  I also agree with you that we should only punish "actual crimes" (in the sense of deeds), and not any "thoughts".  It is irrelevant whether these thoughts are bad or not.  The fact that you even mention the word "bad" in this context, suggests that you seem to realise that your racism is "bad".  But, I agree that it should not be punished. It should be stoically 'endured' by sensible people. Because I do not want to give the power to any government to label thoughts in any way, in order to prevent abuse of governmental power and persecution of political opponents.  It would be the end of 'democracy'.

6)  I cannot comment on Buchanan's purported 88 % number.  I have no idea what it pertains to.  Which election, where, and when?

7) Did I claim that the article was about "Buchanan's racism"?  I did NOT.  So, why do you feel a need to tell me that?   

 

You claim to make "valid points". Well, then, try making valid points, instead of mixing apples and oranges, fighting strawmen, and descending in the gutter. 

  

But as far as Islamic

But as far as Islamic terrorism is concerned, his blase attitude, often breaking into outright apologia, is most certainly not the product of any naivete, but rather of his well documented anti-Semitism.

The enemy of my enemy an all...

 

.

  • Why do we associate waryiness of Muslims with racism.  There are many Muslims who are White. It's their ideology that makes them dangerous and that same ideology is incompatible with integration into a Western society/culture.
  •  Arabs who constitute a sizeable portion of Muslims are also Semites. 
  • Mein Kampf, which was required reading in Third Reich Germany was voluntarily sought after in the Middle East and was translated into Arabic. 

@marcfrans

Thanks. I was going to respond to Armor, but decided against it.

No, it is not.....

...all Buchanan's fault.

 

@ Armor

Given your persistant refusal to make the proper distinction between culture and race, i.e. your racism, I am convinced that it is also futile to try to debunk your manifest anti-semitism.  But, perhaps others are more open to reason... 

1)  Buchanan was often called an anti-semite in the past, decades ago, because he used to make numerous anti-semitic statements.   Specifically, he tended to give credence to absurd conspiracy theories, and was also given to expounding on false (in the sense of historically-unbalanced) views w.r.t. the enduring Arab-Israeli conflict.  I believe that his anti-semitism was rooted in a certain kind of 'Roman Catholicism' of Buchanan's youth (in WashingtonDC) which mainstream catholicism has left behind long ago.  His close association with Richard Nixon also must have been a major contributing factor.

In recent times, Buchanan appears to have tempered his anti-semitism considerably.  In part, this is probably due to the rise and challenge of islamism.  But, the main reason is that Buchanan has justifiably become deeply concerned about the dangers of large-scale immigration from third world cultures, and especially about the effects of illegal immigration on the American social fabric.  Even Buchanan has come to realise that 'jews' do not present an immigration problem, nor an assimilation-problem, in the USA. 

2) It is true that jews tended to vote 'left' in American elections in the past (for understandable historical reasons), and they still represent an important component of the Democratic Party's 'coalition'.  But that is such a big amalgam of different special-interest groups, that picking out 'the jews' would be unfair.  Moreover, the voting picture has been changing dramatically in the past decade or so.  To illustrate, the political standardbearer of 'jews', senator Joe Lieberman has just endorsed Republican John McCain for the coming presidential election.  And I would expect Republican Rudy Giuliani to get most jewish votes in, for instance, the primaries in New York and Florida.  So, it would appear that your perceptions of political sympathies of 'jews' are outdated and perhaps wrong.  They are certainly selective and unfair.  Jews are pretty much politically as diverse and divided as any other groups of Americans.  But then, you take a very 'European' perspective on jews, which is very different from the reality in America.  But remember, this article is about Buchanan and his book.  In some ways, Buchanan seems to be as ignorant and confused about Europe, as you clearly are about American conditions.  

3) Turning to European conditions, it is absurd - as you clearly do - to focus on 'jews' in the context of third world immigration.  Jews come in all 'shapes and forms and opinions'.  AND, they are an absolute TINY minority in Europe.  The leftist immigration policies of recent decades in Europe have been pursued by NON-JEWISH European elites which have nothing to do with 'jews'.    You are simply scapegoating.  In fact, you are allowing a much 'older' form of racism ('European' anti-semitism) to feed  - and fuse with - your much more modern current racism (with the latter having been induced by genuine immigration problems).

 

  

anti-european racism

in reply to Marcfrans

" Given your racism / your anti-semitism "

I think I made a few valid points that will remain valid even if you call me a racist.

I will repeat myself: According to Jason, Buchanan opposes immigration because he is a racist, and he does not care about the rise of islam in Europe because he is an antisemite. Personally, I think the worst thing about immigration is the destruction of Europe and America, but Jason mainly worries about increased antisemitism. In that case, maybe he should reconsider his support for muslim immigration? Surely, that's what Buchanan would advise. But I think Jason is too much of an immigration enthusiast to consider the option. So, he will continue to blame Buchanan for opposing immigration, and at the same time, for not caring about the damage caused to the Semites by immigration. So my question is: is Jason crazy? Is he naive? is he an anti-european racist? Are the Jews naive?

The question whether or not Buchanan is racist and anti-semite (and whether Jason and Marcfrans really love mankind in an all encompassing way) is irrelevant (although in my experience, people who go about calling others racists are not necessarily kind and well-meaning). What matters is whether immigration should continue or not. Of course, it should not. It is destroying our countries and will cause more and more violence. So, Buchanan is on the right side of the debate, and you (Jason and Marcfrans) are on the side of violence and destruction. Buchanan has written books to support his point of view and give arguments. You have no counter-arguments to give other than calling people racist and antisemite.

It doesn't matter who doesn't like whom, as long as no one gets hurt. It is the same as with hate crimes. I think we should punish actual crimes, not bad thoughts. Currently, European antisemitism doesn't hurt any one. But the Jewish community is hurting us in a big way by supporting immigration and the displacement of Europeans. So, our real problem is not antisemite feelings but anti-european policies, which are encouraged by morons like Jason and Marcfrans. Buchanan is trying to save a lot of suffering to his fellow Americans. But Marcfrans and Jason do not care about that. They have too much fun calling him racist and antisemite.

Marcfrans: " Jews are pretty much politically as diverse and divided as any other groups of Americans. "

Buchanan says that according to a gallup poll, the American Jewish community voted 88 percent for Democrats in November 2006. And it can be observed by every one, in france and the USA, that the Jews are particularly active in the campaign to replace Europeans with third-world immigrants, even though a number of Jews also oppose immigration. What good is your opinion if you deny reality?

Marcfrans: " I would expect Republican Rudy Giuliani to get most jewish votes in "

By the way, he is an immigration enthusiast.

Marcfrans: " Even Buchanan has come to realise that 'jews' do not present an immigration problem, nor an assimilation-problem, in the USA. "

When did he ever speak of Jews in those terms? What do you mean by assimilation? How do you explain the 88% vote for the Democrats?

Marcfrans: " But remember, this article is about Buchanan and his book. "

And remember the article is not about Buchanan's racism.

Marcfrans: " You are simply scapegoating. "

You are simply an ass.

Horrors awaiting whites

For anyone who thinks it will be a good think or won't matter one way or the other when whites become dispossessed minorities in their own rightful homelands should heed the example of Detroit, Michigan, USA. Once majority white-a thriving manufacturing powerhouse that contributed significantly if not decisifively to the Allied victory in WWII. Now majority black- a third-world sh*thole with large sections resembling Dresden after the RAF got done with it. Enough said.

it's all Buchanan's fault

Jews are the most influential supporters of third-world and muslim immigration to white countries. This is especially true of most Jews who specialize in warning us about "islamo-fascism" !
They wield tremendous influence in the media, political parties, cultural institutions and so on. If they changed their minds and came out against the displacement of the whites, maybe immigration would soon be brought to a stop. Besides, it is easier for them to do so. Unlike Europeans, they won't be called nazis if they criticize the immigration policy. They are the ones who like to call others nazis.
So, it is absurd to call Buchanan an anti-semite because he does not care about the rise of islam in Europe. The rise of islam in Europe is entirely due to muslim immigration, which is massively supported by the Jews.

What is it that makes the Jews Jewish? I don't think many of them believe in the Jewish religion. I am sure it is mainly a question of racial awareness. They are aware of their common history and ancestry. So, why do they think it is good for Europeans to be replaced by immigrants?

anti-white

Why should Buchanan worry about islam in Europe? I live in Europe and I don't worry about that. Islam is a nuisance, but it is not a danger to my life.

Jason: " He's deeply anti-immigration, but in a not-so-well-concealed racist way."

Your racism is not so well concealed either.

" he makes allusions to the coming horror when whites are no longer the majority ethnic group in America "

Google "the color of crime" and you will see that a huge part of crime in the USA is already committed by blacks and Hispanics. But you already know that. It is getting worse all the time thanks to immigration. You have to be crazy or malevolent to support the displacement of the whites by third world immigrants, especially when you are aware of the crime figures.

" But as far as Islamic terrorism is concerned, his blase attitude, often breaking into outright apologia "

It is very unlikely that he supports islamic terrorism ! A blase attitude about islamic terrorism is the right attitude. The media likes terrorist attacks because they are spectacular, but street crime by immigrants is far more common and claims more victims.

" his well documented anti-Semitism "

In what way did he ever harm the "Semites"? I don't think he ever did. But people like you, who support immigration from the third-world, are deliberately destroying the lives and the future of white people. If this is not a racial attack, I wonder what is. Besides, you are incredibly dishonest about it. Why are you anti-white? What are your arguments in support of immigration?

@Armor

"you will see that a huge part of crime in the USA is already committed by blacks and Hispanics"

Did you also notice that a "huge part of crime" is also committed by men? What say you to that?

@Armor

Good answer. I would deport all alien criminals on our lands as well. Would you also say that all female immigrants who do not commit any crimes should be deported as well?

@atheling

Atheling the great anti-racist. Are you the same atheling who suggests that a significant degree of Western cultural degeneration is attributable to female sufferage? Thats rich! I assume that if you have the courage of your convictions you would be in favor of stripping women of the right to vote. So your form of "bigotry" is kosher but that of racialist's is not. Truly astounding.

You confess that black and hispanic males have a significantly higher crime rate than white males but you would deny racialist whites the recourse of removing them from our sphere of life because that would be "racist" and "fascist."

Then you say that all males are more violent on average than all females presumably to suggest if it is rational for white males to forcible distance themselves from black and hispanic males it is also rational and fair for all women to distance themselves from all males for the same reasons.

One problem, if all males were permanently distanced from all males in the way that racialist whites would like to separate themselves from all black and hispanic males the human race would die out from lack of procreation.

Further, most men would not abide by this. Shorn of their moral responsibilities to women via this rejection they would simply take by force the women they wanted. And given black and hispanic males disproportionate propensity to criminality white women would suffer a higher likelihood of being brutalized by blacks and hispanics that they would not otherwise have suffered but for the absence of the protection of white males.

I think you know that your analogy between the group interests males vs. females and whites vs. blacks and hispanics is absurd. Or perhaps you don't, I don't know.

It seems to me that you are simply desperate to delegitimize white group interests because YOU just think its a rotten way to be (because its "racist" and "fascist") even though it would obviously be in the best interest of both white men and white women.

@captainchaos

Goodness, what a confused person you are. I admit, I threw a few bombs there for Armor, but apparently YOU took the bait.

"Are you the same atheling who suggests that a significant degree of Western cultural degeneration is attributable to female sufferage? Thats rich! I assume that if you have the courage of your convictions you would be in favor of stripping women of the right to vote. So your form of "bigotry" is kosher but that of racialist's is not. Truly astounding."

Where did I say that women should have their suffrage rights removed? I think that there is a definite problem with many women's ability to think rationally when it comes to politics, law, etc... That doesn't mean I support removing their right to vote. However, if a problem exists, shouldn't it be brought up in order to remedy it? Your extremist attitude is irrational.

"You confess that black and hispanic males have a significantly higher crime rate than white males but you would deny racialist whites the recourse of removing them from our sphere of life because that would be "racist" and "fascist."

Where did I say that? You misread what I wrote. go back and read it or take a class in basic comprehension.

"Then you say that all males are more violent on average than all females presumably to suggest if it is rational for white males to forcible distance themselves from black and hispanic males it is also rational and fair for all women to distance themselves from all males for the same reasons."

You presume incorrectly. If you check statistics, you will find that it's true that most crime (particularly violent crime) is committed by men. And your strange conclusion is... well, just WEIRD.

"It seems to me that you are simply desperate to delegitimize white group interests because YOU just think its a rotten way to be (because its "racist" and "fascist") even though it would obviously be in the best interest of both white men and white women."

There are no "white group interests" in America. It's CULTURE, not skin color which is the issue. If your stupid assumption was correct, then no white men would be committing crimes, would they? However, since all normal and rational people know that white males also commit crimes (just as hispanic and black males) then perhaps the issue is not skin color, but a PROBLEM WITH ASSIMILATING INTO SOCIETY AND CONFORMING TO ITS LAWS.

Secondly, what of the non-whites in America who conform to its culture and abide by its laws? Their existence belies your ridiculous assertion!

You chose your name well. Your Neanderthal way of thinking (and I use that word lightly) proves that you are not only irrational and shallow, but UNJUST. Your lack of fairness and your absence of a sense of justice reflects that YOU are not truly integrated and assimilated into American society, indeed, you don't belong in any just and civil society.

Naive?

I doubt Buchanan is naive about Islam. He's deeply anti-immigration, but in a not-so-well-concealed racist way (i.e. he makes allusions to the coming horror when whites are no longer the majority ethnic group in America). That's why he undoubtedly sees Islam as an "existential danger to Europe".

But as far as Islamic terrorism is concerned, his blase attitude, often breaking into outright apologia, is most certainly not the product of any naivete, but rather of his well documented anti-Semitism.

The enemy of my enemy an all...