No hard feelings.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

I never took a swipe at "the Jews", because in my opinion "the Anything" don't exist.
I am not taking the time anymore to repeat previous comments of mine because you are a hopelessly frustrated human being whom I can not cure.
End of conversation.

" Who cares if you or your fellow bandwagon riders agree or disagree with me about anti-Semitism?... for centuries we were persecuted and slaughtered by "friends" ..."
 
I don't hate you because you are Jewish
 
I don't hate you because you are an idiot.
 
I don't hate you because you are a Jewish idiot,

or because you are an idiot who just happens to be born Jewish.
 
In fact, I don't "hate" you at all,I pity you,but I

do hold fast to  the view that you are an idiot.
 
Unless and until you show evidence to the contrary,that

opinion is unlikely to change.

Re: Aliza.She is a Jewess and you are a Jew.Tell HER about your differences  on this issue,NOT me!

Wilders is doing the right thing. Film would be good start but he needs to do more then just films…..his campaign against dual citizenship and banning immigration from Islamofascist countries are excellent ideas but he is not going deep enough. Immigration from non-European countries should be banned…..citizenship should be only for native Dutch…..NO naturalization…….

Wrong… read again and show me where I wrote such thing…….i simply wrote B”H I am part of Hashem’s chosen nation…….for Aliza some qualified help here from Rabbi Moss just for start……
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/160993/jewish/Are-the-Jews-the-Chosen-People.htm

Now you can label me with any despicable word you want to but that won’t change my view about you……there is clear difference……marcfrancs, sagunto they disagree and probably dislike me but disagreement and dislike never crossed in to “the Jews” and as descent people they show displeasure to only me and not to my faith or my nation. You on the other hand clearly showed your true colours by keep attacking everyone of my faith. …..of course in your fantasy land you are “the smartest person” on this plant…….yep when something missing in your head other persons writing do start to look idiotic…… again you could had made your point about freedom of expression without taking a swipe at “the Jews”…….more then 6 million innocent were slaughtered not because freedom of expression but because HATE SPEECH poison was allowed to spread through out Europe.
Prime example today HATE SPEECH in US is focused on photos of Noose black issues etc….but no one is even paying attention to real HATE SPEECH propaganda by Islamo fascists……. majority American’s are already feeling uncomfortable about WAR against Islamofascism only because of irrational arguments by defenders of freedom of expression that Islamofascist propaganda should be allowed to flow because its freedom of expression. Poison of islamo fascist Hate speech can’t be stop just by counter arguments. In battle enemy propaganda must be stopped not to let it flow. Putting an end to Hate Speech is not suppression but rational reality.

Ok I think I said bit too much I realize you care about your faith just like I care about mine. I am sorry about that. No hard feelings I hope for future…..
 

Are you sure you are not an islamist pretending to be jewish? Your writing is so idiotic that you can't be a jew, they are much more intelligent.

Well, I know it's terrifying, but it had to come out anytime soon... so. Here it is!

The long awaited Wilders-film about the Koran: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5q-iqpgZZc
 
Oh well ok, it's "a" Wilders-film ;-)

In fact it would be a smart move indeed, when the actual film, if it ever comes out, would not concern itself with the koran but with the numerous reactions/preparations to the mere announcement of the film, some of them pretty hysterical and hilarious (Dutch government) and also some pretty threatening (the Syrian agent dressed up as über-mufti, or was it vice versa, intimidating the appeasers at the EU parliament).

Sag.

"Who cares if you or your fellow bandwagon riders agree or disagree with me about anti-Semitism?"

Apparently you're the only one. Must be lonely being you.

"But reality is you are not friend of Israel and I am simply trying to show your true face to “every kibbutz idiot”"

Good luck. They probably laugh in your face. Now go back to the asylum where you belong. Better yet, why don't you go to the Daily Kos and spew your ignorant venom there? At least you'll be in the right venue for it.

"For centuries we were persecuted and slaughtered by “friends” Islamofascists can only have wishful thinking of matching our “friends” on that."

*have a kleenex* Now stop shooting yourself in the foot.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

re: Your 'arguments' based upon the claim that you are one of "Hashem's chosen",and the rest of us here are all antisemites .
 
Suggestion: Go Hash 'em out with Aliza @
 
http://torahtopics.blogspot.com/2007/01/chosen-nation.html
 
 

Who cares if you or your fellow bandwagon riders agree or disagree with me about anti-Semitism? I don’t need anyone’s certificate for that. Point is bandwagon riders like you can’t stop whining about how big friend you are of Israel. But reality is you are not friend of Israel and I am simply trying to show your true face to “every kibbutz idiot” For centuries we were persecuted and slaughtered by “friends” Islamofascists can only have wishful thinking of matching our “friends” on that. NEVER AGAIN is the motto of “every kibbutz idiot”.

I don’t care if you will get reply from Flemish, German or French but you won’t get free ride from me if you try to bash “the Jews”. B”H I am part of Hashem’s chosen nation. If you think I am allergic to be called member of Jewish faith then you surely needs a doctor who can check if you got any Brain left or you need to be sent to MPC on E 125th.

You cry wolf a lot. Every time someone disagrees with you, you scream "anti Semitism!". After a while, no one believes you anymore. And after a longer while, no one will believe that anti Semitism exists anymore because of people like you who abuse the term.

I guess every kibbutz has its idiot.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

I don't think there is a cure for your frustrations.
I am regularly writing about the Flemish, the Germans, the French and from time to time about the Jews.
No Flemish, German or French individual has ever complained to me to be called as such, why should they?
You, on the contrary are allergic to be called a member of the jewish faith, rather intresting don't you think?
Further you can say or write whatever you feel like about me, I will even defend your right to do so, but you have absolutely no right to stop any kind of freedom of expression, whatever your reasons. That is the one thing you will never pass by me without being attacked for it.
My comment about "the jews" was in sympathy, I have Dachau-survivors in my own family, by marriage and my sympathy goes to them with full compassion. Further they agree with me 100% that Dachau would have never happened with freedom of speech in Germany in the 1930's.
So be intelligent and do what I asked you to do, you didn't even think 5 minutes, otherwise you wouldn't have insisted on repeating the same BS.

You just can’t wait to show you anti-Semitic bigotry. You could have made your point like the way Sagunto or showed your disapproval against just me but NOOOOO….. Unfortunately it’s important for you to show your bigotry against “the Jews”……

There is no-place for Hate speech in freedom of expression. Besides I remember a while ago Mr. Belien wrote that because of Belgium laws he wants to be very careful about such things and I absolutely agree with him.
Rationality should be put before …..Stupidly cheerleading for “ideology” …….in current circumstances to achieve something positive rational steps are needed. Passionate defence for freedom of expression works only when you are in like minded society and enemy is playing by rules.
In any case Hate Speech shouldn’t be tolerated period. Freedom of expression is not absolute. USA birth place of freedom and liberty don’t have absolute freedom of expression anymore sure US is far better then Europe but still there are limitations. For instance 1st amendment clearly states everything about freedom of speech, freedom of expression etc… but still congress passed HATE CRIME legislation.  

"and you can choose based on your ability to think and interpret the Bible on your own...which is not very difficult...if you tried."

Oh yeah, of course! Choose religion like you choose peanut butter! What a crock of s*** you propose!

From the gobbledygook you have posted so far, you have demonstrated that you haven't the mental capacity to "choose" what's right or wrong. You are no Christian, little man. You are merely a liberal masquerading as your own pope. Pathetic.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Well I'll be. You think like a Catholic, lol. You sure you don't have a Jesuit hiding in your closet somewhere?

Greatly appreciate your clarity of mind and judgment, as well as your knowledge of history. I wish other Westerners (and Christians) had the same.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Yes atheling, habemus ad dominum..

To a Dutch reader the words 'lapsed Catholic' look kinda funny, somewhat like: "are you a Catholic who's had a little too much to drink?"

But in all honesty, no. I'm still sober and I never was a catholic. Not lapsed, so no 'relapse' either ;-)
I'm just not all that fond of those atheists who display some kind of moral/intellectual superiority vis a vis religion. Oh, and I don't like the kind of intellectual elites who claim to posess some sort of blue-print or medicine for an ideal society (be it 'religious' [Calvin, Mohammed] or non-religious [Lenin, Hitler]). Engineers with big schemes who'd like to remake society as a whole into 'the ultimate system'; one perfect machine. Such system-thinkers always succeed in failing to grasp what needs to precede any 'system' (my own clumsy version of Böckenförde's thesis).*

Revolts of the (self-proclaimed) elites have always been something along 'systemic' lines, and they always have been primarily targeted at people who uphold tradition and cherish their own freedom. An important part of European tradition (imp. both in longevity and accomplishment) is, apart from the religious core, the unique mixture of ancient Roman civilization (folk-culture included) and pagan culture that survived in and through the Roman Catholic church. Without it, Europe can't remain Europe. It becomes nothing but the EU. Even a Frankfurter Schulist like Jürgen Habermas acknowledges this (albeit tacitly), in his famous exchange with Joseph Ratzinger, non papa at the time ;-)

Sag.
* That's why i.m.o. 'bringing democracy' to societies who are culturally deeply at odds with its values, will never succeed. A short look at the Gaza elections will suffice to rest my case.

You have not made your argument. You have indeed "failed miserably" to substantiate your assertions.

Yet you obdurately cling to them. So, who is the sinner? Who clings to lies?

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Steiner,

How stupid can one be? Do you think Pope John Paul II is the same as Hitler? Or Pope Benedict XVI?

Answer, please.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Regarding your arguments.

They show that you have become so dedicated to the papacy that you are willing to accept any man as long as he has got the papist garb.

None of the Apostles committed murder. The Apostle Paul stopped murdering after he believed in Jesus.

But Im not going to shove your faces into the excrement to let you see for yourselves all that the popes have done....(Im afraid that as long as you are told that it is the popes...you will always say that you like it)

to you they are sacrosant....

Hence, my conclusion is true. Had Pol Pot, or Hitler, or Stalin, or Osama walked in Papal garb...you would be here defending them with all the ardour in your very being...using some scraps from the Bible and all the blinkers and blindfolds needed to believe such a thing.

As regards to the churches that have moved off from Rome...at least when you go into one, you will know whether they are pro homosexual or not...and you can choose based on your ability to think and interpret the Bible on your own...which is not very difficult...if you tried.

But with the Papists, you are bound and forced to accept anything that is up there. Murderes, Pedophiles, womanizers, genociders...etc.

and then on top of that...you go defending them...

think will you....

@Sagunto:

Ah, HL Mencken is an astute observer!

Thank you. (Argh, I don't know Dutch!)

PS- Are you a lapsed Catholic???

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Here's a quote from the one & only H.L. Mencken that might amuse you (well, perhaps not all of it):

"..The Latin Church, which I constantly find myself admiring, despite its frequent astounding imbecilities, has always kept clearly before it the fact that religion is not a syllogism, but a poem. Rome, indeed, has not only preserved the original poetry in Christianity; it has also made capital additions to that poetry -for example, the poetry of the saints, of Mary, and of the liturgy itself.

In the United States the Latin brethren have been seduced by the example of the Protestants, who commonly transform an act of worship into a puerile intellectual exercise; instead of approaching God in fear and wonder, these Protestants settle back in their pews, cross their legs, and listen to an ignoramus try to prove that he is a better theologian than the Pope. This folly the Romans now slide into.."

H. L. Mencken wrote these lines in 1923, roughly 40 years before Vaticanum II. Not only is it funny and well written, but it also contains a profound lesson. Anyway, I espec. liked the part about the "ignoramus" and the "puerile intellectual exercise". Self-proclaimed 'thinkers' out here have kindly provided some stark illustration of his point ;-)

Sag.

P.s.: in an earlier post I tried to 'complement' the incomplete picture painted by some thinkers. Afterwards I noticed a glaring omission on my part. Because when allusions to Herr Hitler are constantly invoked by some great thinkers out on the loose here, the one European "icon" that Hitler consistently mentions as his inspiration in executing his Final Solution should not fail from any list. Or do you think that it would be wise to leave Herr Martin Luther* and this whole slightly sub-topic discussion in peace? (* "On the Jews and their lies" & "An Admonition against the Jews"; read both of these sickening pieces in a well researched Phd. dissertation by René Süss [in Dutch] )

Now, let’s address heresy. I will cut and paste what St. Thomas Aquinas defined and analyzed as “heresy”:

"a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas".

Those “corrupt dogmas” can be witnessed today in many Protestant sects by their erroneous teachings on: homosexual marriage, polygamy, abortion, contraception, the transubstantiation of the Eucharist, free will, etc…

St. Thomas also articulates:

"The right Christian faith consists in giving one's voluntary assent to Christ in all that truly belongs to His teaching. There are, therefore, two ways of deviating from Christianity: the one by refusing to believe in Christ Himself, which is the way of infidelity, common to Pagans and Jews; the other by restricting belief to certain points of Christ's doctrine selected and fashioned at pleasure, which is the way of heretics. The subject-matter of both faith and heresy is, therefore, the deposit of the faith, that is, the sum total of truths revealed in Scripture and Tradition as proposed to our belief by the Church. The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".

The Catholic Church’s dogmatic purity comes from having a visible leader who can say “The buck stops here”. We can be assured that the Magisterium, through its devotion to the Gospel truth, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, Scripture and tradition, affirms and teaches Christ’s Truth over the centuries without fail, as promised by Christ to his first disciples. Through the Pope and the Magisterium, we Catholics don’t have the moral confusion so prevalent in Protestantism today.

If one regards history, one will see the culture which emerged after the gestation period of the Dark Ages, in which the Renaissance – truly a rebirthing of man – produced some of the greatest art the world has seen and remains unparalleled to this day. And what has Protestantism produced? Sects. And more sects. And many, many more sects. Like a Hydra, we see a head die, and then 2 or 3 more take its place, only to die again… there is no consistency or longevity! And with each emerging sect, we see stranger and more startling teachings as promoted by the crackpots mentioned before. Tell me Steiner, how long has your “church” been in existence? Since 1974? 1992? Did it start in someone’s backyard six months ago? Or are you the sole member of your “church”? Where does your moral authority come from? Yourself? Your pastor? What “checks and balances” do you have to prevent the corruption of Christ’s teachings? I would venture to say NONE. I would also say that your “church’ won’t last. Like many of the other sects which have come and gone, yours will go the same way. And guess what? The Church will remain. Long after your sect has passed, long after many nations will pass, the Roman Catholic Church will still stand, as Christ promised.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

"If you think I have failed miserably in making my point, so be it.

On the other hand, maybe there is something to think about."

Here is food for thought for you:

A Pope you forgot to mention: this one followed Jesus since the early days of his ministry. Jesus told him “You are the rock upon which I shall build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee”. Later, that Pope betrayed Jesus THREE TIMES, out of pure cowardice. Some leader, huh? Do you think that you should NEVER listen to him or read his letters in the Bible? Another one of Jesus’ disciples betrayed him to his enemies with a kiss. Does that mean that the faith should be repudiated because its followers are weak and sinful? Do you abandon Peter because of Judas?

Steiner, your remarks imply that the personal sinfulness of these popes (and I’m assuming that what you have listed is truthful, though you have not sourced your information and you have not shown good faith in your intentions), means that one should not follow the Church. I put it to you that NO Christian church can then be followed, for you will find sinners in EVERY sect. Indeed, it is a strange phenomenon that a church which is so riddled with sinners can still stand! 2,000 years of good and bad, and the Church remains the largest, oldest, and most visible evidence of Christian faith. In those 2,000 years, she has NEVER had to unsay what she has said regarding faith and morals. NEVER. Even those sinful popes have never uttered a false teaching of the Gospel, their personal sinfulness notwithstanding. Now that’s something to think about. Why is it? Could it be possibly that there is a supernatural reason for the Church’s existence? Does not God always keep his promises “... and the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee...”?

Now, when one looks at the many, many sects which sprang from Protestantism, one sees confusion, contradiction, and UNTRUTH, such as the heresies regarding the sacrament of Holy Eucharist (some say it’s merely a symbol), sin (homosexuality and abortion are okay), whether Jesus was truly a man, greed (as in the televangelists’ creed of wealth), free will, etc... Furthermore, Protestantism has produced many false teachers who have led their flock to their demise: Rev. Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, David Koresh, to name a recent few. Certainly, in committing suicide as these false leaders have done, and with the current defections of many Protestants to the true Church, one can see that those cut off “branches” withered away as Jesus stated in the Gospel of John. The Church is right to cut these heresies and heretics from the true faith via excommunication in order to maintain its doctrinal purity, which remains unchanged since the Church’s beginnings on Pentecost. You accuse the Church of killing heretics (you also fail to mention the many heretics who have killed Catholics over the centuries, or even the Salem witch hunts), but the statute of limitations ran out on that a long time ago. When’s the last time a Catholic burned a heretic at the stake?

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Steiner is mistaken because he is confusing personal sin with dogma.  Whatever sect he may belong to (and I am guessing that it’s one of those enthusiastic evangelical branches), he is poorly educated in his ability to reason properly.
 

 
Pope Benedict’s Regensberg address - yes the one that made Muslims go apes**t over his reference to a remark made by a Byzantine emperor about Islam’s irrationality and violence - was really a reprimand to the Christian sects which have supplanted reason with zealotry.  It’s rather ironic and telling that most “heretics” like Steiner completely missed the point.
 

 
"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Given that:

1.The Saudi Arabian state is a government based on the Wahabi interpretation of the Koran.

2. Its laws are sharia laws.

3. The Saudi state is financing the building of many of the mosques that preach a wahabi version of Islam in our countries.

Can we conclude that Saudi Arabia is setting up its own
mini-governments (embassies) in our state every time
another mosque to be built?

This is illegal?! is it not?

A foreign state should not be allowed to set up mini-governments in our nation.

If you think I have failed miserably in making my point, so be it.

On the other hand, maybe there is something to think about.

If you are offended...dont be. Take my comments lightly...
and work things out on your own as you think about them.

We may not change our minds right away, but as we discuss things through,
we learn a little, add to our knowledge, and as time passes, we may come round closer to the truth...

So if you think that you have not been heard...I disagree.
I appreciate and value every single person here.

I'm not so sure that Yitzhak is being sincere in his call to have Steiner banned. I suspect that he is making a sideswipe at the editor's faith, implying some kind of bias regarding free speech.

What is really amusing is that the only person that Mr. Belien has banned (to my knowledge), is Amsterdamsky, the resident jew hater, (although Kapitein Andre comes a close second), and who was also reinstated to the BJ as a commenter as a result of the intercession of many here who believe in free speech, no matter how stupid or hateful it may be.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Fanatics are actually quite funny when they try to make a point while anger gets in the way. Entertaining to see one thinker's attempt to silence the other forum-swamping forosoph.

Great answer: don't like what you read? Just ask the moderator for a ban. This really is 'thinking' at another level.

A bit low for my taste but hey, go ahead Mr. and don't let a desire for meaningful discussion or even simple decency stand in y'r way. 

I agree with @traveller, silencing someone - whatever you might think of the.. eh peculiar way Herr Steiner is presenting his point - and asking for a ban, is a disgrace that i.m.o. is not to be excused.

Sag.

I did try to warn you about Yitzhak.The answer to your question is no,but I'm pretty sure he got your last message loud and clear.
 
"They do not like it up 'em".

Steiner works on my system from time to time because of his harmless ranting.
You on the contrary make me mad when you want to block freedom of expression, that my friend is exactly why the jews could be exterminated in silence.
Shut up and think for 5 minutes, then apologize to everybody here.

I just arrived in Geneva and read the comments.
For a man who is not frustrated he certainly displays the symptoms, do you think he knows that I tried to be nice???

@ steiner

You are really hopeless in your crusade.
I am a catholic, born and raised, went to a catholic school.
And you know what, when I read something about historical figures like popes, kings, emperors, Wlad the impaler, I shake my head and say: that son of a bitch was really bad. The reason for this is that I cannot do a f.....g thing about it.
I know why those popes were bad, because they lost track of the purpose of a christian leader.
Today they are changing which is a good thing, but mind you, I am not praying to a pope, I pray to God and try to follow Christ and I know I am a weak human being.
Attila also thought he was good.

So what if Hitler was never excommunicated by the Church? I don't think you understand what excommunication is about. By your reasoning, we can blame Communism on the Jews, since Marx was a Jew. And believe me, Communism is no better than Naziism. We can also blame Jews then for the ACLU and its leftwing, communist agenda. Would you like to have your religion blamed for that too? You want to open that can of worms?

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Ok looks to me Steiner is Anti-Catholic bigot its time for Mr. Belien to take some action. Preferably by deleting Steiner’s account, deleting his ridiculous rants about Papacy would be much better.
  

Alright since you are not going to stop acting like dumb teenage cheerleader i gotta make it clear so then may be you grow up and act mature.
“Was Hitler apostate” or not “Was He Christian” or not I don’t care what someone thinks or believe. Fact is Hitler was never excommunicated by Church, Was baptized Catholic. Denial can’t change historical fact. Now many so called “moderate” Islamofascists can’t stop whining same kind of claim about Bin Laden that “He is not Muslim” blah blah…Give me a break……
I invoke reference to Old Testament because that’s part of your beliefs isn’t it? I never seen or hear anyone in my synagogue reading Matthew, Mark, Luke etc I am sure people with brain got my drift.

 Sagunto is conveniently spinning and minimizing Jewish persecution by Church throughout history Church’s record is mixed instead of acknowledging that you are simply in denial about negative record your open dismissal makes me think if that’s just simply ol’ bias or “closeted bigotry”?
Rabbi Dahlin’s book is mostly about Hitler’s mufti plus Rabbi Dahlin is not denying anything put by Mr. Cronwell in his book. Anyway Pope Pius XII record at best could be benign neglect the controversy about Pope Pius XII is still open. Pinchas Lapide first grossly exaggerated the number of Jews saved by church. Anyway Sagunto conveniently forgot to mention the number of baptized Jews. For example 3000 Visa’s to Brazil were obtained by Holy See but 2000 were not granted because of in Cardinal Luigi Maglione’s words “improper conduct” Translation reference to the returning of Jews to Judaism once they reached Brazil.In the spring of 1940, the Chief Rabbi of Palestine, Isaac Herzog, asked the papal secretary of state, Cardinal Maglione, to intervene in Spain to keep Jews there from being sent back to Germany, and he later wrote again about a similar situation in Lithuania. But the Holy See did not intervene.
On September 18, Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, the future Pope Paul VI, noted: "The massacres of the Jews reach frightening proportions and forms." But when the United States representative to the Vatican, Myron Taylor, forwarded a note to Cardinal Maglione that month, stating that the Jews were being sent to the east to be killed, the secretary of state replied that it was not possible to verify the accuracy of such rumors.
 
Now I don’t believe any “irredeemable atheist” would minimize and spin Jewish suffering however a closeted bigot that’s whole different story isn’t it “Sagunto”.

If a civilization from outer space asks us to provide examples of our most wonderful people.

would you send the pope list? or would you want to hide the list at any cost?

what would we do if they wanted to imitate the popes in order to blend in with our society?

When we are told by our politicians not to offend, and when the islamists and even the pope get on the bandwagon and demand that we must respect religion.....is that what you want?

Ought we not to be allowed to think for ourselves and be able to criticise...

are we supposed to remain silent and allow ourselves to be brainwashed...

Is it just fine to be dragged into court because we have offended? Is it not more like we have shed some light on the reality...and are forcing people to think and change...

atheling do you think that it is fine to eliminate religious heretics because they wish to simply deviate? Like the waldesians, bogomils, cathars, hussites...did they deserve to be savagely murdered, literally ripped open of their lives because these papists decided they were heretics?

and by the way...tell me of a group of christians whom the Papacy did not call heretics, and were allowed to be independent of the papacy?

You will find none... because anyone who did not wish to be under the Papacy WAS A HERETIC.

There are lots more, and it only gets worse...I will continue later.

P. Gregory had the French King of the time excommunicated, forced the king to divorce his wife Bertha(I wonder whether Gregory was interested in her.

Had a spat with an antipope called John XVI. John XVI was captured, his feet, hands, tongue and ears were cut off, and was made to walk the streets of Rome while Pope Gregory and company looked on. A miracle...but who takes the credit...whadda you think atheling? did Gregory make this guy walk, or did he do it on his own? who performed the miracle?!??

Pope John survived all of this and lived his life out in jail...see not so bad...But I know...he is not Pol Pot, or Hitler right... What do you think...Ohhh...back then, his holiness was doing nothing wrong! people were much hardier then, and could easily have walked off without their feet or ears..or tongue..no one would have noticed....actually come to think of it, Gregory let him live! Gregory was merciful!!! ILL be adding as I read more...

Th

We wont hit bottom for awhile, but here is another pope that you might want to imitate instead.

He was accused by his own cardinals of having incest with his mother.
He came up with many and various sins that had not been thought of before...allowing a brothel to operate under his auspices...

He was found having sex with someone elses wife...found by the husband who apparently took care of the good pope.

Here is another...

Apparently, someone must have caught up with Pope Formosus in the Tiber and reburied him again when Pope Sergius III appeared on the scene...

What do you think this good pope did?

He had Formosus dragged out of his grave again, and chopped off more of his fingers and Im not sure whether Pope Formosus was saved from the Tiber...Hey, maybe Pope Formosus learned how to swim...
and returned to his grave...do some checking on this fellow. He is amazing...in his own way.

Among other interesting things, Stephen was the pope that

1. Had pope Formosus tried.

But this was not a fair trial. First of all, Pope Formosus was not allowed to have access to a lawyer and on top of that Pope Formosus had been dragged out of his burial chamber, set on a chair, charged, judged and sentenced by the synod.

His head was chopped off (sound familiar?) and his three pointing fingers severed and then thrown back in the Tiber.

2. Another victim was Constantine the second. His eyes were torn out and his tongue ripped off to stop him from arguing...

Do you wish to imitate this fellow? ehr? could he pass as pol pot or Hitler or a stalin or etc...i know a huge leap.

steiner writes; "Hitler was definitely not a Christian...".
 
Question: Will he,like yourself,be "Yitzhaked" (i.e. accused of antisemitism) for daring to suggest such a thing? Watch this space.Likewise,watch this space for steiner's promised list of "BAD" and "UGLY" Popes.Will this list,if or when it comes, save steiner from almost certain"Yitzhakification" or is it already too late for him?Will Yitzhak be too petrified to "Yitzhak" steiner? This is all riveting stuff,wouldn't you agree? So,sit back and let the comedy continue apace...

Let us look at some popes and some of the things that they did to establish their reputation as Vicars. Then ask yourself: if there is a heaven, do they belong there, or do their victims?

Hitler was definitely not a Christian, but I dare ask, was he unlike many of the popes?

Or since we are on the topic of the Islamists…

are they much different than many of the popes?

Essentially, could Hitler or the Mufti of Jerusalem or Osama, or Stalin, or Pol Pot...etc. could they easily pass off like many of the vicars if we dressed them up in the Papist garb and planted them in the Vatican?

Eh?

and if so...would we want to dearly hold on to such a precious institution?

Don't forget, you asserted that there were "many Popes" who were on the same level as Mao, Stalin, Hitler, et al... The onus is on you to substantiate that statement (at least in the real world).

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Note here that out of a huge list of popes, we are now being subjected to the GOOD popes...

Well, ILL be back with BAD and the UGLY ones...not to say that the GOOD ones have quite a bit to answer for themselves...

Just when you've wiped that egg off your face, some more gets thrown on it.

You're quoting something Hitler said in 1922. Ever hear of the word apostasy? Methinks his pathology progressed quite a bit from there.

I recall your contradictory comments stating in one thread where you invoked Mosaic Law to "justify" Christian pacifism, then in another, you blandly state that Judaism and Christianity have nothing in common.

Back to the drawing board for you. *hands him a towel*

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine