Britons Say Enoch Powell Was Right

A quote from the BBC, 17 April 2008

Almost two-thirds of people in Britain fear race relations are so poor tensions are likely to spill over into violence, a BBC poll has suggested. Of the 1,000 people asked, 60% said the UK had too many immigrants and half wanted foreigners encouraged to leave. […] Equality and Human Rights Commission head Trevor Phillips said the findings were “alarming”. […]

The survey was commissioned to mark the 40th anniversary of Enoch Powell’s infamous “rivers of blood” speech, in which he described the indigenous population’s “sense of alarm and resentment” over immigration. […] BBC home editor Mark Easton says Powell’s words, spoken to a small gathering in Birmingham’s Midland hotel, still echo down the decades. […]

Asked if they thought immigration meant their local area didn't feel like Britain any more, a quarter of the sample agreed – double the amount who felt this three years ago. Six out of 10 said immigration had made parts of Britain feel like a foreign country. […]

[O]ur correspondent says immigration is now back on the political agenda. He says: “One reason politicians can debate it again, perhaps, is that the latest wave of immigration is different. The million Eastern Europeans who’ve come to the UK in the last three or four years are not looking to settle for good. Their motives are economic. And perhaps most importantly they are white. Forty years after Enoch Powell, the issues of race and immigration have been separated once more.”
 
More on this topic:

Rivers of Blood and the Mentality of 68, 16 April 2008

It Is Worse than Enoch Powell Predicted, 16 April 2008

Rivers of Blood Forty Years On
, 17 April 2008

@Atheling: bitter twist of faith..

 

@atheling,

I know you might think it a typical sample of malicious Eurony, so I won't put too much emphasis on the fact that Pope Benedict has qualitate qua (of course) not produced any offspring to help counter the dwindling European fertility rates. I really admire him for his stance on Islam, 'cause i.m.h.o. that's what really matters in the final analysis.

But for you, presenting yourself as a ehm.. committed anti-European Catholic - albeit more anti-Euro than catholic perhaps -, surely it must feel somehow like a wicked twist of faith, that your supreme spiritual leader happens to be, well.. a European ;-)

 

Sag.

Following God's laws (unlike the evil Euros)

I'll type in caps so you get it through your thick skull:

AMERICA AND EUROPE ARE SEPARATE ENTITIES. AMERICA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EUROPE. AMERICA IS NOT LIKE EUROPE (Thank you, God). AMERICA WAS ESTABLISHED IN ORDER TO AVOID THE PITFALLS AND PROBLEMS CREATED IN EUROPE AND TO ESCAPE EUROPEAN OPPRESSION.

I apologize. I wrote that you lacked the independence of mind to escape the media's conditioning. I was wrong. You lack far more than independence of mind. To say that America has "nothing" to do with Europe is so stupid that I don't know where to begin refuting it. So I won't bother. You wouldn't understand me anyway, not being able to speak any European language.

When the shit hits the fan in Europe, don't look westward, and stay the fuck out of America.

Yes, it's easy to see why you don't feel we're on your intellectual level. Still, you can console yourself that, as a humble, courteous Washingtonian Catholic, you've done your best to follow the tenets of your religion.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

That's the non-European, non-anti-Christian Thomas Paine, I presume.

@Atheling: I think I understand perfectly

Okay Atheling, have it your way.

I was expecting some sort of counterpoint, but I wasn't prepared for such hysterical discourtesy. You, being a Catholic (or so you say) should perhaps have paid a little more attention to what B-16 had to say.

Of course there are plenty of sensible conservatives in the States still, people who might disagree but don't lose their heads so easily, so I will continue to look West.

Kind regards from Amsterdam,
Sag.

atheling forgets his roots

Atheling, America is nothing but Europe. America IS the real Europe that still remains. It is the Europeans that betrayed Europe, not the Americans. You are the only Europeans still remaining.

 

@Atheling: I hear you.. loud & clear

It seems we disagree on some important points,  Atheling. No use to resort to the somewhat condescending "you don't understand". Just a firm exchange of differing views will do. Fair enough?

I'm not arguing the demographic points you bring to the front of the debate about the Islamization of Western culture. I do question however the way you go on about this in what seem to be mere moralistic religious rants. I fully acknowledge, as you know already, the enormous international value of Benedict XVI and his stance on Islam. But the respect that he shows non-catholics when discussing the issue of the crisis of the West's self-understanding, does not transpire in your outright condemnation of Europeans as followers of a "cult of death". Seems you yourself have very little to offer in the way of encouraging people on this side of the Atlantic to resist Islamization. Nothing but at lot of preaching about your religion of demographics. That's not exactly reaching out, or is it?

In the title of my previous post, I inserted somewhat of a personal note. To scale things down to more humane proportions, so to speak.
Look, my point is: if you'd come by and talk to my wife or my sister and repeat with the same gusto as you do over here that they, being hedonistic Europeans, subscribe to a "cult of death", then I might be able to respect, well just a bit at least, the harsh and rather abstract judgemental stance you seem to take so easily online.

 

Allow me to put forward my point even a bit more personal, just to be absolutely clear about the thing that bothers me most about your tone of voice.

Here's the story.

I never knew my grandmother from my mother's side. She died a few years after World War 2.0
My grandfather had miraculously escaped certain death by firing squad, when he was liberated by his mates from the Dutch resistance from Nazi imprisonment. It was a harsh and bitter fate that just few years later his wife died, for something both of them really struggled with, but what the "cult of life" (excusez le mot) demanded of them. She died while giving birth to her eleventh child.
My mother all witnessed this at six years of age: the utter despair of her own mother, even the odd attempt at running away from it all (and thinking it was her little brother and herself, who somehow had done something terribly wrong), and finally the death of her mother. Can you imagine she was scarred for life, by the fact that her mother bled to death?
Now you may react any way you see fit, to this tale of European "petite histoire". But I really hope you'll refrain from your all too familiar statements about anti-christian hedonism, et cetera, just because my own mother made the choice to have less children than the one she dearly missed all her life.

 

Kind regards from Amsterdam,

Sagunto

 

Post scriptum:

Having said all this, I nevertheless value our exchange of opinions.

 

RE: YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND

No, Sagunto, you don't understand. Frankly, I don't care, and I'm not interested in your personal stories. Save it for scrapbooking.

I've had it with you Euros. You're blind, obtuse and never learn from the past. You people (like Saharian, ovalteen, KA, Armor, et al) are succumbing to the amoral relativism of Nazi Germany.

Secondly, you don't like "moralistic religious rants"? Well, I see something very clear here. You just don't like hearing about morals. That's why you're an atheist. Anything goes, right?

Don't worry, you won't hear any more from me. I'm disgusted and repulsed by you people. And believe me, I'm not the only American who feels that way.

When the shit hits the fan in Europe, don't look westward, and stay the fuck out of America.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Liberal evasion

I won't bother to respond to ovalteen's racism.

And there, ladies and gentleman, is proof that Ath' is liberal. But then he lacks the independence of mind to break free of his media conditioning and is merely here to parrot the Steyn-line: "It's about culture and demographics, not race." Yes, Ath', I'm a racist: just like Enoch Powell, whose arguments were shut down by liberals with responses just like yours.

@Ovalteen

You know nothing about America or Americans. We are not YOU. WE ARE NOT EUROPEANS.

GOT IT? So speak for yourself, and not for America.

I'll type in caps so you get it through your thick skull:

AMERICA AND EUROPE ARE SEPARATE ENTITIES. AMERICA HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EUROPE. AMERICA IS NOT LIKE EUROPE (Thank you, God). AMERICA WAS ESTABLISHED IN ORDER TO AVOID THE PITFALLS AND PROBLEMS CREATED IN EUROPE AND TO ESCAPE EUROPEAN OPPRESSION.

Here are quotes from Thomas Jefferson on Europe. Sorry, it's not in comic book form but I hope you can understand the big words:

"Nothing is so important as that America shall separate herself from the systems of Europe, and establish one of her own. Our circumstances, our pursuits, our interests, are distinct. The principles of our policy should be so also. All entanglements with that quarter of the globe should be avoided if we mean that peace and justice shall be the polar stars of the American societies." --Thomas Jefferson to J. Correa de Serra, 1820. ME 15:285

"It ought to be the very first object of our pursuits to have nothing to do with the European interests and politics. Let them be free or slaves at will, navigators or agriculturists, swallowed into one government or divided into a thousand, we have nothing to fear from them in any form." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1801.

"Our nation has wisely avoided entangling itself in the system of European interests, has taken no side between its rival powers, attached itself to none of its ever-changing confederacies." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808. ME 16:318

"To take part in [the European] conflicts would be to divert our energies from creation to destruction. Our commerce is so valuable to them that they will be glad to purchase it when the only price we ask is to do us justice. I believe we have in our hands the means of peaceable coercion, and that the moment they see our government so united as that they can make use of it, they will for their own interest be disposed to do us justice. In this way [we] shall not be obliged by any treaty of confederation to go to war for injuries done to others." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1801.

"I hope [all will see and] promote... the advantages of a cordial fraternization among all the American nations, and the advantage of their coalescing in an American system of policy, totally independent of and unconnected with that of Europe. The day is not distant when we may formally require a meridian of partition through the ocean which separates the two hemispheres, on the hither side of which no European gun shall ever be heard, nor an American on the other; and when, during the rage of the eternal wars of Europe, the lion and the lamb within our regions shall lie down together in peace... The principles of society there and here... are radically different, and I hope no American patriot will ever lose sight of the essential policy of interdicting in the seas and territories of both Americas the ferocious and sanguinary contests of Europe." --Thomas Jefferson to William Short, 1820. ME 15:262

"[Our] object [in this hemisphere] is to introduce and establish the American system, of keeping out of our land all foreign powers, of never permitting those of Europe to intermeddle with the affairs of our nations." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1823. ME 15:478

SEE? WE ARE SEPARATE FROM EUROPE. WE ARE NOT CONNECTED TO EUROPE.

And do us Americans a favor. Stay the hell off our land.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Of course

Brits prefer immigration from Poland than from Africa and Pakistan for a whole bunch of reasons, whether economic, cultural, religious, etc. It's called common sense.

And, oh yeh, Clivus's statements on fertility rates rebounding is unmitigated horseshit.

@atheling: got kids y'rself? Many?

[quote: atheling]

"..All Europeans care about is NOW. All they want is to enjoy their hedonistic pursuits and have the nanny state care for them when they grow old. To hell with the future.."

 

So you want those hedonistic Europeans to defeat the Islamists at their own game: the womb as a weapon? To be frank, I'm getting a bit tired of all this doom-o-graphic scaremongering, though I enjoyed reading "America alone", as I reckon you did ;-)

Postponing the first child is the main reason for lower fertility rates in the Netherlands. Now you might find that "immoral" or "hedonistic" or whatever, even go so far as to describe it as a cult of death, but demographers ascribe it to the simple fact that more women have a chance to follow a higher education and work for a few years before their first one (of 1.75) is born.

Is it hedonistic of them to use the opportunity to go to university and work a few years before giving birth? Do these people subscribe to a "cult of death" just by doing that? Perhaps you should try to talk to my wife and find out about hedonism and even scarier European stuff ;-)

 

I don't know if you've ever visited Holland, but it is among the most densely populated places on earth. It would truly be a blessing - to use the religious parlance perhaps somewhat irreverently - if the NL population would kindly drop by a few million. This was the opinion of many sensible people (yes, christians included. Some of the elder generation vividly remembered the times when the clergy would come by and use every psychological means necessary to press women into another pregnancy, often leading to death while giving birth to number 9 or so. Perhaps you'd applaud the "un-hedonistic" practices of those days?).

But now, thnx to political correctness one is immediately branded a racist when you give but the slightest impression of thinking that Holland might be a bit overcrowded. Of course these folks have also added the typical banker's "argument", that we must breed like rabbits to "maintain our current economy". So that's the baby-boomer argument, used by bankers, telling us to pay for their numbers and early pension; breed for economy's sake; or face mass immigration.

While all we have to do is stop Muslim immigration and outlaw as far as possible Islam as a criminal organization.

 

Kind regards from Amsterdam,

Sagunto

@Sagunto

You apparently don't understand. Demographics is a game of the last man standing. And from the way things are going, you folks aren't going to be that man.

I won't bother to respond to ovalteen's racism.

Fine. You people keep up what you're doing (or should I say not doing). It'll be Muslims who will have the last laugh.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Let's reverse immigration!

• It would truly be a blessing (...) if the NL population would kindly drop by a few million.

• While all we have to do is stop Muslim immigration and outlaw as far as possible Islam as a criminal organization.

--> Stop immigration from muslim countries only?

Clever Trevor speaks

Equality and Human Rights Commission head Trevor Phillips said the findings were “alarming”.

No, what's alarming is that the non-entity Phillips, who has enjoyed a lucrative career purely because of his race and his Marxist connections, is still taken seriously when he comments on a situation he and his comrades bear most responsibility for. Powell saw the disaster coming forty years ago, while Phillips has spent every one of those forty years determinedly making the disaster worse. Phillips should be put on trial for treason with the rest of New Labour, not given the chance to air his fatuous and dishonest views in our national media.

@atheling

Listen, I don't want mass immigration either. I have repeated over and over again that I want SELECTIVE, careful immigration and demand integration to the host culture.

If that's what you want, you still fail to grasp the problem. Immigration must be reversed, not made "selective", if either Europe or the US is to have any chance of maintaining its status as a white nation. "Demanding" integration is not realistic: conservatives solve problems by not creating them in the first place. One avoids the problem of integration by not letting immigration happen. In the end, intelligent, hard-working immigrants are more harmful than unintelligent, lazy ones, because the intelligent, hard-working immigrants will move into politics, big business and the judiciary and corrupt them for their own ends.

Atlanto-a-go-go

@ Armor

 

"Together we will kick the muslims (and sikhs, buddists, animists and so on) out of Europe".

 

If I agree to help you, do you agree to leave my British-based Polish pole dancers alone, and start the forced expulsion process with kappert?

@Atlantic

It's a deal !

Sorry Kappert, nothing personal.
I love you, but c'est la vie...

More on the stay in UK vs return home differential

Again, unlike the Poles and Czechs, who have a decent country to return home to, people from Bangladesh, Somalia, India, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Tanzania, Yemen and so forth, are not going to ever go back home. That's because, no matter how much the pound falls and the UK's economy hits the skids, it will always be better for them in the UK than in their home countries-- even without the extra welfare benefits in the UK (which they receive in high numbers). So they stay in the UK.

And since these immigrant populations have much higher fertility rates-- average of 4-6 kids per couple for e.g. Bangladeshi, Somali or Sierra Leonean families-- compared to British white couples, who maybe have one child, this portends a massive demographic change in Britain. You see a similar situation taking place in Canada, USA and Australia, even if the specific groups may vary.

What too many Western countries have failed to realize, is that you can't support massive immigration when you have a welfare state as well as the native population having passed the "demographic transition." These kinds of birth rate differentials always lead to nastiness, like they have in Kosovo and Lebanon-- you have to preserve some kind of demographic stability, which the UK, Canada, Australia and the USA (all with dismally sub-replacement fertility for the native-born population) have failed to do.

Again, as I wrote in my previous post, it's fine to have transient drops in fertility to sub-replacement levels since they correct themselves after a generation as values change and population stabilizes, but you can't open your doors to mass-immigration in the process. Japan is sub-replacement but not replacing itself with people from the outside, it's just going to wait out the TFR > 2.1 phase until the culture becomes more pro-natalist after a generation. So Japan's population will stabilize without demographic upheaval and large-scale ethnic replacement, as is happening in the UK, Canada, Australia, Sweden and the USA, for example.

I just don't think the UK will ever catch on to this. It's unbelievable that all the major parties-- the whole LibLabCon bunch-- want to bring Turkey into the EU, since Turkey's labor force would just about instantly flood half of Europe's countries and irrevocably change their demographics, to become Muslim-majority. Even the French and German governments think this would be a dumb idea. If the British government (not to mention those of Canada, the USA and Australia, who really have no business in the matter) so urgently wants Turkey to be in the EU, I say to them, they should be the first to fling open their doors to Turkish labor, if they think this is a good thing. They should at least put their money where their mouth is, otherwise they're hypocrites who deserve no respect.

put their money where their mouth is

"If the British government (not to mention those of Canada, the USA and Australia, who really have no business in the matter) so urgently wants Turkey to be in the EU, I say to them, they should be the first to fling open their doors to Turkish labor, if they think this is a good thing. They should at least put their money where their mouth is, otherwise they're hypocrites who deserve no respect."

Don't forget Israel.
Israel definitely needs Turkish workers.
It will bring them cultural enrichment!

South Asians, Muslims, Africans in UK don't return home

There's another crucial difference between the Poles and other immigrants to the UK-- almost all of the Poles are going back home, while the millions of people streaming in from the Indian Subcontinent, Africa, SE Asia and elsewhere, don't have a place to go back to, so they stay in Britain.

Even before the UK's recent economic downturn, the vast majority of Poles would work about a year (occasionally a bit more), earn some extra money, then just return right back home to Poland. That already rapid return process has recently been accelerated even further-- as the pound's value has fallen relative to the zloty (let alone vs. the Euro), Poles don't want to stay in Britain anymore or come there in the first place. It's just not worth their time or money to go and work in a distant, foreign country like the UK, away from friends and family, unless they can make big gains in the process.

In fact, the only reason some Poles now remain in the UK, is that they're able to claim British child benefits for all their children *back home in Poland*, which indeed does mightily irritate British citizens. But overall, most Poles have little drive to remain in or go to the United Kingdom.

The pound/zloty exchange and Britain's decent economy were the drivers for the arrival of the Poles in the past 5 years. Since both of those factors have now changed negatively-- the pound having dropped, and the UK economy on the skids-- almost all Poles are now going back home to Poland, or resettling and working in a different EU country in some cases.

Germany and Austria are both common destinations for Poles and other Eastern Europeans who've worked in the UK but don't return home outright, partly because of their own established Polish communities, partly also due to their job opportunities. I worked an engineering stint in Wiesbaden, in central Germany, a few months ago and encountered quite a few Polish workers, with impressive language and technical skills. Most of them in that particular troupe, as I learned, had already worked in Britain for about a year-and-a-half, but now they and nearly all of their Polish compatriots (as well as Czechs, Lithuanians, Slovaks and others) were leaving the UK.

Interestingly, while Germany has its own demographics issues, it's not nearly as disastrously bad there as in the UK or, say, Canada or Australia outside the EU, as I've found it while working there so much over the years. There are a large number of Germans who've left Germany in the past 5 years, but the vast majority of them just go to Austria, Switzerland, or Tirolean Italy and east Belgium (which are German-speaking) and so stay within the same basic Central European "Germanic sphere" in close contact with friends and relatives back in Germany. The very fact that this flow is largely one way-- hundreds of thousands of Germans leaving Germany for Austria and Switzerland, but very few in the other direction-- does indeed show that people are fed up with Berlin's ridiculous taxation schemes. Still, things will probably improve in Germany once the people get rid of the incompetent Angela Merkel. In Germany, quite unlike in the UK and Australia (let alone the USA), I detected a noticeable strain of nationalism that is openly Islamophobic and interested in preserving the country's demographic integrity, even among elites, something which I never find in North America, the UK or Australia since their own regime changed over. The Germans just don't like Muslims, period, and finally, they're not so bothered by PC to make their opinions known. Germany does have an enormous Polish/Czech/Slovak population which increases rapidly every year-- more than any other EU country-- but is able to absorb them due to the longstanding historical ties that Germany (as well as Austria) have had over centuries with the East, stemming from the Prussian and Austro-Hungarian Empires.

In contrast, Britain's own imperial experience is largely in Africa and the Indian Subcontinent-- half of India having been under British rule-- as well as SE Asia to a more limited extent. So, unsurprisingly, the vast majority of immigrants to Britain stem from these countries. Even during the height of the Polish labor flow a couple years ago, the numbers of Poles were exaggerated-- over 3/4 of the immigrants to the UK coming from the Subcontinent and Africa. (With many of the rest coming from Middle Eastern countries such as Yemen or Turkey.) Now, the percentages from these countries are even higher as the Poles stay home.

White asparagus

@ atheling

 

This particular Briton prefers (limited) immigration from Poland than from Africa or Pakistan for purely religious and cultural reasons.I have a Polish friend whose father is Polish and mother is French.He's set to visit France in a couple of weeks time, and I've already suggested he visit Armor's part of the world while he's over there.He knows about Armor, so he asked me why I would make this suggestion.I told him that it was my understanding that white asparagus is coming into season over there soon, and his favourite vegetable is, you've guessed it, asparagus. 

@Atlanticist911

"This particular Briton prefers (limited) immigration from Poland than from Africa or Pakistan for purely religious and cultural reasons."

Exactement! Last I heard, Poles weren't preaching sedition in mosques (although some may indulge in fantasies of dictatorships).

I bet the white asparagus is best served in that country with (yellow) hollandaise sauce. ;)

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

function of the intellect

" For a person who is a racist, you sure seem to lack discriminatory powers, which is a function of the intellect."

We have a minority of people (BBC, European governments, etc) who want to replace Europeans with immigrants, and we have a majority of Europeans who disagree. I think the racist attackers are in the first group, not the second one. In fact, I am an anti-racist.

Anyway, I'm going to work on my discriminatory powers so as to live up to your standards.

Atlanto-whats-his-name: " This particular Briton prefers (limited) immigration from Poland than from Africa or Pakistan for purely religious and cultural reasons."

Great! I welcome your help. Together we will kick the muslims (and Sikhs, buddhists, animists and so on) out of Europe.

Stop the hallal killing - Bring on the pork chops with asparagus!

@Armor

"We have a minority of people (BBC, European governments, etc) who want to replace Europeans with immigrants, and we have a majority of Europeans who disagree."

The alleged fact that the "majority" of Europeans "disagree" is belied by the FACT that those very Europeans are not having children. Isn't it rather stupid to complain about being "replaced" when you yourself (not you personally) are not having the children to continue the existence of your people?

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

@Atheling

Falling birth rates do not mean we want immigrants to make babies for us! The birth rates in Japan are lower than in Europe, but they wouldn't dream of importing people from other places.

We want our governments to stop immigration, but our governments and media want to continue mass immigration. I think we are entitled to complain. But the media won't relay the complaining, which probably explains why politicians who favor more immigration get reelected.

being "replaced"

No need to use quotes. This is exactly what is happening --> "Six out of 10 said immigration had made parts of Britain feel like a foreign country".

PS: read Clivus and learn!

Low birth rate issue a red herring, adjusts after a generation

Many economists make this argument, that Europe should just throw open its doors to immigrants since it has sub-replacement fertility. But this is a foolish claim to make. World population is going to have to stabilize somewhere, it can't keep growing forever, and Europe's cities are already pretty filled up.

What's happening in Europe right now is hardly unusual or alarming-- fertility rates have waxed and waned throughout the history of Europe (and the world). What normally happens, is that after a generation of sub-replacement fertility, cultural values change and the society takes on a more pro-natalist character, so birth rates go back up again, and the population stabilizes.

This has actually happened many times before for Europe, and it's what's happening right now in Japan. The Japanese economy will indeed endure some shrinkage as it ages, but in a generation's time, pro-natalist values will kick in again, as they have in the past, and Japan's population will stabilize while it retains its basic ethnic integrity.

This natural corrective process is destroyed, however, by mass immigration from the outside-- then, the country continues to become crowded, while the "pro-natalist correction" doesn't take place for the indigenous population. And other cultures and societies with more conservative values towards e.g., women working outside the home and family size (Muslim cultures in particular), demographically replace the indigenous population. This is what's happening in the UK, Australia, USA and Canada alike. Their native-born ethnic white populations have sub-replacement fertility, but rather than letting this process work itself out over a generation, they're busily replacing themselves demographically.

Mass immigration doesn't even have much in the way of economic benefits. Immigrants get old too, after all, and many cost more than they contribute. This is why economists are constantly screwing up in their calculations. Even if we leave out the massive cultural and demographic upheavals, the economists in the UK who think that the country should just open up its doors to, say, North Africa, assume that the immigrants would automatically contribute more than they take out. But a large number of them just wind up as wards of the state. So from the perspective of demographics, culture and even short-term economics, open immigration is a dumb idea. Nations need to have smart policies on this.

Learn?

Clivus bloviates a lot but it's all theory. What proof is there that the fertility rate will change?

1. He does not take into account the lapse of Christian values in Europe, which promotes family, children, and life.

2. He fails to give any example of the "waxing and waning" throughout history where the fertility rate has risen and the population has recovered. Indeed, I am willing to bet that Clivus' theory does not include the fact that birth control and abortion are new factors in western society which are major contributing factors to the decline of the birth rate, as well as the lapse of Christian values.

"Mass immigration doesn't even have much in the way of economic benefits. Immigrants get old too, after all, and many cost more than they contribute."

That's socialism for you.

Listen, I don't want mass immigration either. I have repeated over and over again that I want SELECTIVE, careful immigration and demand integration to the host culture. However, Clivus' arguments fall way short of reality, because he fails to see the the change in culture that occurred when Europe became socialistic and atheistic. In essence, Europeans are no longer who they were 100 years ago, and they are a dying people, some of whose fertility rates are so low that no society has ever recovered from it. And from the comments I see here, there is no end in sight to Europe's population decline.

You are suffering from a "culture of death", which Pope John Paul II correctly diagnosed decades ago. What is the point of having children, when there is nothing but a hole in the ground for you in the end? All Europeans care about is NOW. All they want is to enjoy their hedonistic pursuits and have the nanny state care for them when they grow old. To hell with the future.

I find it ironic that atheistic people, who purport to be "scientific", would place their "faith" that somehow, a culture will suddenly and radically change its ideas and values (from culture of death to culture of life) without any efforts to produce those changes individually or communally. It's strange and irrational that you think somehow the next generation will "see the light" and start having babies when any confidence or faith in a future for Europe has been wholly bankrupted.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

ping pong

"He does not take into account the lapse of Christian values in Europe, which promotes family, children, and life."

I think the Chinese are doing all right without the Christian religion.

"He fails to give any example of the "waxing and waning" throughout history"

I agree that we are in a situation that has never existed before, and I am not sure we can get valid lessons from the past. But I think what Clivus says is based on common sense.

"I want SELECTIVE, careful immigration and demand integration to the host culture"

Then, our debate is somewhat artificial. But I wonder why you want any immigration at all. Maybe you want to sound moderate...
The word integration does not have any precise meaning for me. What I know is that you cannot transform non-whites into whites.

"Europeans are no longer who they were 100 years ago, and they are a dying people"

Arghh !

"What is the point of having children, when there is nothing but a hole in the ground for you in the end?"

Feeling part of a nation is a good way to give some meaning to one's life. It is supporters of immigration who are trying to forbid any sense of transcendance.

"All Europeans care about is NOW."

I thought it was Americans who cared only about making everything bigger and more productive.

"To hell with the future."

Don't tell me that people who push for more immigration have a sense of the future (unless they like civil war).

"I find it ironic that atheistic people, who purport to be "scientific", would place their "faith" that somehow, a culture will suddenly and radically change its ideas and values (from culture of death to culture of life) without any efforts to produce those changes individually or communally"

I don't know if Christianism will ever make a comeback, but things are changing now:
the immigration disaster is growing worse, white people are becoming fewer, but more annoyed... I think Europeans will become more optimistic about the future and start having babies again as soon as we start expelling immigrants.

ding dong

@Armor:

"I think the Chinese are doing all right without the Christian religion"

Really? That bastion of human righs, where people are forced to have abortions after 2 children, particularly if it's a female baby? China is heading for a woman shortage and that's not going to be pretty.

"I think Europeans will become more optimistic about the future and start having babies again as soon as we start expelling immigrants."

Right. You just keep on believing that. And what if the immigrants don't get expelled? Is there any sign that your government is going to do that?

But whatever. Be happy.

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Wrong again...

"The British population obviously prefers immigration from Poland than from Africa and Pakistan. For racial reasons."

I doubt that's the reason.  Of course, there may be a few Britons who feel that way, but I am inclined to think that they prefer the Poles because they are mainly Christian and not Muslim.  The social, moral and political landscape of Britain would not be as radically changed if Britain imported Christian immigrants vice Muslim.

For a person who is a racist, you sure seem to lack discriminatory powers, which is a function of the intellect.

 

 

"He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.” – Thomas Paine

Alarm!

" the indigenous population’s “sense of alarm and resentment” over immigration."

" Trevor Phillips said the findings were “alarming”

What is alarming to a normal person is the population replacement organized by the government and its BBC. It would be alarming if the British were not alarmed by that. But we should not be alarmed at reading that the BBC and Trevor Phillips say it is alarming that British people are alarmed. The BBC and Trevor Philipps are paid to say things like that. Does Trevor mean that people should not be alarmed, or does he mean that popular alarm shows there is really something wrong with the immigration policy? It doesn't matter. He just says what he is expected to say, even if it is meaningless.

" alarm and resentment over immigration "

It sounds like a accusation of immigrant-hating, when in fact, the malevolence comes from the BBC. Why do they support the replacement policy? There is certainly popular resentment over the treachery of government, but immigrants are not made to suffer for it. On the other hand, British people are made to suffer from the consequences of the BBC's ideology.

“One reason politicians can debate [immigration] again, perhaps, is that the latest wave of immigration is different. (...) they are white."

It is absurd to say that immigration from Europe is the same as immigration from the third-world.

" the issues of race and immigration have been separated once more.”

The British population obviously prefers immigration from Poland than from Africa and Pakistan. For racial reasons. But I think Britain should refuse mass immigration even from European countries. Somehow, it seems that what began as propaganda for the displacement of the whites has now led to supporting mass immigration from other white countries. Now, a white person can be accused of racism for discriminating against another white person!