@ nataraja
 
Agreed, it's not ALL about Islam and Muslims, but, of course, some of us have never claimed that it was.
 
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2008/05/why-does-it-tak.html
 

Thanks.
I need more time to digest this and come back.
At first glance it looks good for 5 points. I don't agree with Ramadan because everytime I listen to him he changes the subject according to the company he is entertaining, I don't trust him at all, he is too slippery.
Your other points merit serious discussion.

"My point is: lets stop this simplistic suggestions that "if we, or you, or they could only get rid of islam things would look much brighter". Its the feeling I get if I scroll down a page of Brusselsjournal the last months, and I think this forum deserves a bit more nuance than that."

I agree wholeheartedly.
The problem is not islam, it is immigration from the 3rd wrld.

...could imply:
1. stop the current discourse reducing every existing social problem to the presence of muslims
2. stop mentioning the religion of a criminal or non-integrated individual whenever its a muslim, and not mentioning it when its not.
3. recognize that it at least in practice is possible to be a moderate person and a muslim (quote Wilders "a muslim cannot be a democrat". final point)
4. Act down harshly on religiously motivated aggression or suppression, in whatever religions name.
5. Invest seriously in an intellectual climate for moderate, intellectual, progressive islam. This will mean as well abandoning the multiculti anything goes-cultural relativism, as well as avoiding unnecessary discussion on separation of church and state. If church hurts what state should invest in for the wellfare of its citizens, church should be changed.
6. Stop avoiding the few isolated pockets of progressive islam to grow and to speak out by unnecessary demonizing them and isolating them. This will need time and space to evolve step by step. Ad discutandum: I believe the "European Islam" as served by Tariq Ramadan is a valuable evolution (yes he´s the cousin of a fundamentalist. Yes he´s controversial. But take him on his words, not on the rumours).

No and thats exactly the point where my reactions are heading for. Its about time to transcend the simplistic doomsday paranoia where literally everything going wrong in both our societies as well as the rest of the world is being reduced to two words: islam and muslims.
I mentioned honour killings because its a classic one. I think the religion vs culture debate is a mere semantic one, and off course gladly used to distantiate oneself to certain insitutionalised mysoginic practices, just like the Father Hijazin in the story. I could have mentioned female circumcision (practiced in a large number of pagan and christian societies in sub-sahara Africa), or the burning of widows and young brides (hindu south asia) just as well. My point is: lets stop this simplistic suggestions that "if we, or you, or they could only get rid of islam things would look much brighter". Its the feeling I get if I scroll down a page of Brusselsjournal the last months, and I think this forum deserves a bit more nuance than that.

In kappert's worst nightmares perhaps.

I am sure we never met, did we?

I'm sorry, do I know you?  
 
;-))

You don't forget much, do you?

btw: I'd be a lot clearer in my own mind about where you are coming from (and going to) on this issue if you would be kind enough to respond to traveller's request to " elaborate a bit on the strategic part please".
 
see: www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3284
 
Thank you.

"The Middle Eastern christians practice much the same terror on their women".
 
But it's not quite as simple as that is it, Nataraja? Well, not according to the article you present as evidence for such a blanket assertion it isn't.
 
"Faten Habash's murder was UNUSUAL BECAUSE SHE CAME FROM THE CHRISTIAN MINORITY in the Palestinian territories".
 
"The family priest, Father Ibrahim Hijazin, declined to talk about Faten's killing other than to say... Catholics here are CHRISTIAN by FAITH and MUSLIM by CULTURE... I don't accept it, but it is THE CULTURE".

...will be bringing in just as challenging cultural customs as the so-called (whatever it means) "muslim culture" that so many people started to name as the main culprit for almost any societal evil around in Europe.
Remember the stoning of a young Yazidi girl in Iraq?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-452288/The-moment-teenage-girl-stoned-death-loving-wrong-boy.html
Any conclusions from the fact that honour killings are a common phenomenon amongst Turks and Kurds regardless of religion? That Middle Eastern christians practice much the same terror on their women? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/23/israel
 
Culture? Religion? Ethnicity? What do the Huntingtonians think?