Georgia’s Defeat and America’s Options

What Mikheil Saakashvili began at his discretion, Vladimir Putin ends at his pleasure. The Russians have called a halt to their offensive in Georgia, and none too soon for the Georgians. What remains is the postwar settlement, and the American part in it.

A look at the situation on the ground speaks to the Russian dominance of the little Caucasian republic: the Russians have near-total freedom of movement in the western plain, with soldiers in Poti. Georgia’s only meaningful lifelines to the outside world are the port of Batumi, and the long road to Yerevan. Neither of these are significant corridors for supply, and the port is free only at Russian sufferance. Further war would have seen a battle for Tbilisi in the coming 36 hours. The Georgians would have lost, and the war thence would probably have devolved into guerrilla actions centered about a sort of Georgian national redoubt in the south — in regions populated more by Armenians and Azeris than by Georgians. To be spared all this is a mercy that Georgians, rightly inflamed by what’s been done in mere days, may not fully appreciate.

The postwar settlement remains thoroughly opaque, even if, as the Russians report, the conditions of a ceasefire are agreed. The Russian war aim was never announced — or rather, it only announced itself on the ground — and its political end remains obscure. The formal disposition of the Russian-occupied secessionist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia must be decided; the mechanisms of reparation, if any, must be agreed upon; and, most troublingly, the Russians are making noises about extraditing Saakashvili to the Hague. Here, a definitive settlement is to everyone’s advantage — not least the Georgians, who are ill-advised to act as if they are anything but beaten. Absurdities like putting Saakashvili in the ICC dock should be rejected, but otherwise, it is almost certainly best to let the Russians dictate their terms — and let resistance to those terms emanate from sources able to make that resistance count, like Europe and the United States.

With this in mind, the first task of America’s postwar policy in the Caucasus is distasteful in the extreme: pushing the Georgians to understand and act like what they are, which is a defeated nation in no position to make demands. This does not square easily with American sentiment — nor my own — nor with the Vice President’s declaration that Russia’s aggression “must not go unanswered,” nor with John McCain’s declaration that “today we are all Georgians.” Russia’s aggression and consequent battlefield victory will stand, and as the last thing the volatile Caucasus needs is yet another revisionist, revanchist state, it befits a would-be member of the Western alliance to make its peace with that. However inflammatory the issue of “lost” Abkhazia and South Ossetia are in the Georgian public square, it is nothing that the Germans, the Finns, and the Greeks, to name a few, have not had to come to terms with in the course of their accessions to the first tier of Western nations. We should not demand less of Georgia.

The second, and more enduring, task of our policy must be the swift containment of Russia. I use the term deliberately: to invoke another Cold War-era phrase, we’re not going to “roll back” any of Russia’s recent territorial gains, nor should we attempt to reverse what prosperity it has achieved in the past decade. (That prosperity, being based mostly upon transitory prices for natural resources, will itself be transitory in time.) Russia’s leadership has declared that it seeks the reversal, de facto if not de jure, of the “catastrophe” of the USSR’s end. Though not marked by any formal decision in the vein of Versailles, this is nonetheless a strategic outcome that America has a direct interest in preserving. That interest has only gone up with the admission of former Soviet-bloc states — and former Soviet states — to NATO. Inasmuch as Russian revisionism threatens the alliance that has kept the peace in Europe for generations now, it must be confronted and deterred.

The obvious question is how this may be done with the tools America has at hand. It is a media commonplace over the past several days that the United States has no leverage over Russia. This is false. American policy can and does tremendously affect several things of tremendous importance to Moscow. A brief (though not comprehensive) list of available pressure points follows:

First, the Ukraine. First and foremost, there is no former Soviet state that Russia wishes to have in its orbit more than the Ukraine. Not coincidentally, the Ukraine was also the only nation besides the United States to render Georgia material assistance in this war, when it threatened to deny Sevastopol to the Russian Black Sea Fleet. European reluctance to antagonize Russia scuttled the Ukraine’s potential NATO membership at the NATO Bucharest summit this past spring. In light of Georgia’s fate, issuance of a MAP, or even outright NATO membership, to the Ukraine, is an appropriate riposte to Russia’s war. Unlike Georgia, the Ukraine has no territorial or secessionist issues, nor an unstable leadership apt to launch unwinnable wars. It does, though, very much need the sort of guarantee that NATO exists to give.

Second, Russia’s G8 membership. The G8 is purportedly the group of the world’s largest industrial democracies. Russia, with a GDP smaller than Spain’s and a per-capita income lower than Gabon’s, was admitted in 1997 as a means of supporting its integration into international economic institutions. It’s a privilege, not a right, and it should be conditioned upon responsible membership in the community of nations. Expulsion of Russia from the G8 is a longtime policy favorite of John McCain’s, and it’s time to consider his preference.

Third, Russia’s client states. This is a short list, though Russian revisionism would wish to see it lengthen. Belarus is by far Russia’s premier client, followed by varying degrees of Russian influence over Armenia, Serbia, Azerbaijan, and the central Asian states. (We’ll exclude here clients like Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistria, all of which have statuses that are dubious at best.) We’ve already seen that Russia reacts to defend Belarus when the latter is criticized. An available pressure point, then, is to turn up the heat on the Belarusian regime — specifically with support of dissidents in Belarus — and link it explicitly to Russia’s behavior elsewhere.

Fourth, Russia’s dissidents. Russian public life is nowhere near Soviet depths, but it is nonetheless notable that the Moscow regime places a premium upon the control of journalistic institutions and media. (A great, English-language example of the slick and statist nature of modern Russian media may be found at Russia Today — note the stories on Georgian “spy rings” and refugees from Georgian aggression fleeing into Russia.) Divergence from the Putin line is a good way to end up unemployed or dead, and so we ought to lend what support we may to independent media personnel — and their means.

Finally, Russia’s Internet. A major tool of Russian foreign policy in the past few years is what may only be described as cyber-warfare. We saw it when Russia wished to punish Estonia [pdf], and we saw it again this week against nearly all of Georgia’s .ge-domain sites. This is a tremendously thorny problem, both because cyber-war by its nature affords the perpetrators plausible denial, and because it is quite easy to respond to a wrong with a wrong — in America’s case, by using its leverage over Californa-based ICANN to invalidate .ru domains from which Russian attacks emanate. Here, the basic functionality of the Internet must be balanced against political concerns — and there must be some mechanism for determining when political concerns from nations like Russia damage the basic functionality of the Internet.

Beyond applying pressure to Russia, American policy must focus upon reassurance to the NATO nations that expressed alarm at Georgia’s subjugation. NATO allies Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and the Czech Republic all know quite well what it means to be crushed by the force of Russian arms, and all were therefore demonstrative in expressing their dismay at events in Georgia. If NATO and the American connection in particular is going to retain its meaning for them, it is up to us to provide the necessary reassurance. Although NATO is no longer a formally anti-Soviet (and therefore anti-Russian) alliance, we cannot pretend that it does not hold precisely that meaning for several of its member states. A failure to recognize this would concurrently weaken the alliance.

The war in Georgia is done but for the details, and the occasional sniping. Georgia lost on the first day, and Georgia has mostly — though not wholly — itself to blame. But if Georgia is prostrate, America and the West are not. If some good is to come of this, and if Russia’s adventure in its “near abroad” is to be its last, we must act decisively — and now.



@ KAPPERT

I put the following question to you Alan Watts style.
 
Q:
 
 
Well, what's your answer?

@atlanticist

Ok, but I have to let your question unanswered here on the site.

bye

Observing convention

@ mdavid
 
Thanks for the invite but I think I'm happy for the moment to continue to observe the ' anonymity convention'.

@atlanticist

please, ask the administrator to give you my email address; then send me a message.

@ kappert

Would that be the same Alan Watts who said, "But to me -the negative, the empty- is exceedingly powerful" ?
 
If so, like me, don't you find it slightly confusing and hypocritical that he should write the word "paper" no less than SIX times on an empty sheet of paper, rather than practising what he professes to believe by leaving that single sheet of paper EMPTY ?
 
Ye Gods ! no wonder he is one of your heroes.

Alan Watts

This reminds me of the venerable Alan Watts:
" These words are written on paper
paper paper paper paper paper "

@ mdavid

What's the point of "reading between the lines" of any kappert post when the lines themselves read like blank spaces?

@atlanticist

a direct answer, if you mean that, you will not find it here; neither in other threads, probably

You will not get anything "better" than what is here already. I am satisfied with the answers I have got...and you saw how my posts were:full of reasonable questions. I read between the lines; you'll see I am right.

But, atlanticist, how the "heavyweights" from the left will answer ?

@ mdavid

If you believe kappert has already answered my question kindly direct me to it. I am referring to an answer that matches up coherently with my question 'cause I can't seem to locate it anywhere on this thread.

@atlanticist/traveller kappert

traveller/atlanticist: let kappert lightly, I think you are smart to see he answered you already. I was insistent enough. my questions remain, for all of us

kappert: I missunderstood your question about Snake(s) Island; and final: having hopes is what we can do at least.

@kappert-difficult to cure

Oh, I meant just that:mutual help/collaboration.
Not any ideological/or of any other type element involved for me, at least. If you go too theoretical - in general - you'll get nowhere..

"Maybe...": one can not isolate, unfortunately. Here "maybe..." works; but in Malaysia, for instance ? Or in SAmerica ?...

"Difficult to cure" - There is no blame; but you have to talk to too many people..

keep dodging

Keep dodging my questions, kappert. With every successive dodge you make my case for me.

difficult to cure

As I said 'should', you may assume that it is my wishful-thinking speaking. Nevertheless, 'anarchy' produced market-oriented economy in the 19th century. Maybe ...

@kappert

ugly means we are traped by ourselves; I don't think we can escape.
Of course I know the solutions; the guys here know also. What I asked was about something else.
To do it we need world collaboration - kind of anarchists' "program": mutual help -; and this is practicaly - not theoreticaly - impossible to achieve. Only this type of behaviour will get results. I won't continue with details; the post will be to long. this is ugly from "ugly world".
This makes your proposals as "utopian", kappert. Not the technical impossibility.

- although it won't like you, I will give you a hint on "ugly"; you say what China "should" do; do you think they will listen to you ? or me ?

re: ugly world

And how do you propose that China should protect this supposed future Chinese utopia other than by the use of their military might?
 
Clue: The answer to this question is the same answer as the one you failed to provide to my previous question(s) e.g. re: oil consumers, which is why you will fail to answer any of my questions. Am I right? 

re: Jump to China

Are you seriously suggesting that this utopian piffle describes Chinese domestic and foreign policy, either in the past, present or future?

ugly world

ok, less ideology - more solutions: Renewable energy resources should be 10% of China’s energy consumption by 2020 (it's a start). Two-thirds of China’s land area receives more than 2000 hours of sunlight annually. This gives China a potential solar energy reserve equivalent to 1700 billion tons of coal. And China has become a world leader in PV cell production: Shangde Solar Energy Power Company. China is also a world leader in solar thermal production and use, accounting for 55 percent of global solar heating capacity (excluding pool systems)—or 52 million m2 of collectors—that was by the end of 2003. The bad side: polysilicon waste is often not recycled, as the process is costly.

@Akira

Obviously, Saak.was the first who thought about NATO helping him. He fall into a trap; the help comes only after georgia is "a little" destroyed.
Voronin does not have a good press here; very few realized, though, he wants only to suck up the bear, he was not genuine. You know he changed his postion several times; now he is more pro-Russian, apparently.
Basescu, another voluntarist, but with good analisys, adviced him Moldavia won't get any economic benefits from his pro-Russian stance. He's beeing suffocated by Russia, he does not have many alternatives. EU did not give him many chances for development. If this news is true, no wonder he walks this way...But he will not attack Transnistria; he is not in nato cards...
I assume you know what Transnistria is: they "own" the power plants needeed by Moldavia, maybe other facilities; Khruschev's doing: a poisonous gift. EU did not raise a finger... No wonder he had hopes. Now he is being justified in his choice: Russia, instead of EU quick membership access...It appeares he was genuine when he wished enter EU.

EU/NATO play a to complicated game with Russia and the countries within near abroad. With their fate, that is...
Bye..

@atlanticist/kappert

Well, it is not a wonderful world, so no wonder he goes off into a fantasy land. Of course world can change, but I don't see any practical chance to happen; that my posts were about. The world can also stay the same; ugly, that is.

@kappert

Am I right ?
For the moment there is no alternative, kappert. The oil/gas will stay even for a transition period ...of two decades, at least.
It does not matter what are you favor in. Nor me. Atlanticist is right. China has an ec.programme of historical importance - for them. They will not downsize nothing. They have no time, so the more oil will be a debated issue the more their thirst of oil will grow ...above an already increased one. India is even worse:they have to switch to gas and nuclear...from coal, that is, in two decades. And they don't built manufactures...just big modern factories. Do you approach these countries too, or they have the "right" to do ...what ...?..it is not even clear what.

Again, it does not matter if you don't like that, or I don't like it.

You need energy for hospitals, schools; there are probably other emergency services; and tools for them, so you need industry, so you need etc., etc., etc. I thought myself many years ago about all of these; and it's highly unlikely to happen soon.

No, you are not right. I was reffering to our lives, kappert. You don't eat oil; so you are not "just" a consumer with many choices at your disposal. It is about your live, all your live; do you like computers ? energy, factories, pollution, you know... It is just an example

You have demands, but no workable sollutions ?
This_is ideology, kappert; no progresist stance.
It would be good to get rid of pollution and oil/gas use; but this is only for God; we are in a pit.

India, China ? Germany is there somewhere, too.
you have a huge and diversified economy, too. And if there is unimployment, Greenpeace will do what ...? demand for jobs - pollution - or for more unimployment ? to decrease the pollution...
Even if EU wants to go back to stone age, Asia will go ahead. And there are other countries who build military; China, Russia; and their armies have nothing to do with US having arms. If US gives them up, the others will not do it.
A peace and love era is not near soon, nor a Messiah...unfortunately.

I know for sure I cannot make you change your..wishes, demands, ideas,etc. We are on the net: I write what I want, you do the same. So, this is it.

@ kappert

Keep hitting them with hot air kappert, one day they will understand you. I won't.

jump to China

Can you govern your animal soul, hold to the One and never depart from it?
Can you throttle your breath, down to the softness of
breath in a child?
Can you purify your mystic vision and wash it until it is
spotless?
Can you love all your people, rule over the land without
being known?
Can you be like a female, and passively open and shut
heaven's gates?
Can you keep clear in your mind the four quarters of earth
and not interfere?
Quicken them, feed them;
Quicken but do not possess them.
Act and be independent;
Be the chief but never the lord:
This describes the mystic virtue.

Sad?

 
"Isn't it sad".
 
Isn't what sad? 
 
Even the Chinese, with all their problems (see below) are way ahead of you when it comes to  facing up to certain realities. Now THAT is sad.
 
http://www.mysinchew.com/node/11652?tid=14
 
 

re: oil consumers

@ kappert
 
You say that you are in favour of downsizing our consumer behaviour (what about the Chinese?) and hardly see any benefits in exploring more and more fossil resources (the Chinese would disagree with you), nor building military-protected infrastructures (the Chinese?), which certainly end in military conflicts (are you suggesting that we should be fearful about the military intentions of the Chinese?).
 
OK but "downsizing" (try selling that idea to the Chinese) doesn't mean total eradication, does it? If not, then please tell me how you would protect (from the Chinese?) the reduced infrastructure you would need to maintain a downsized consumer society if you do not employ the military in that role.

@atlanticist

Isn't it sad. Book recommendation:
Javier Esteban: El derecho a la ebriedad. Editora Amargord.

@ mdavid

I told you kappert couldn't face reality, didn't I?
 
Oh, he acknowledges YOUR 'reality' that YOU are right to centre YOUR questions on oil consumers (like yourself), but he refuses to centre HIS answers on the same problem (even though he is also an oil consumer like everybody else). No, instead, HE goes off into fantasyland and starts describing how he wishes the world SHOULD be rather than accepting it the way it IS.
 
Hopeless.   

oil consumers

You're right to center the question on the oil consumers. Though I am in favour of downsizing our consumer behaviour, I hardly see any benefits in exploring more and more fossil resources, nor in building military-protected infrastructures, which certainly end in military conflicts. But most people don't think that way.

mdavid, Moldavia also planned Croatian-Krajina-style Blitzgrieg?

Thought you might find this Romanian-related news interesting: Moldavia also planned Croatian-Krajina-style Blitzgrieg?

@mdavid

I understand what you meant and, believe me, so does kappert. But kappert can't face "reality", for to do so would require him to provide 'real'answers to 'real' questions. When was the last time you saw that happen? 

@atlanticist

No, this time I meant that. He lives in the same "reality" as I do - EU, Russia, etc. In fact for him it is more "striking":the economic aspects, that is; so, this is for him only.
I don't ask his answer for me; only to tell it to himself. he's free to post it, if he think's so..

re: kappert - Nabisco thoughts

@ mdavid
 
"I don't need necessarily an answer".
 
That's just as well, for when it comes to  failing to provide answers to questions posed, kappert truly 'takes the biscuit'.

@kappert -Nabucco thoughts

This question is beyond ideology; it goes directly to you as German/European citizen- and consummer.

Only the sending side matter here ? Or the shape of the economic organization ? The fact that you - kappert - are a direct beneficiary does not matter ? And mostly ? given the fact it is your life at stake...or it does not matter..

Why do you think the "ideologists" here tells you about "the utopia" you are interested ? There is simply no time to debate anything; although, myself I would preffer no polution.
The Russians will never give a damn if you are neutral or "objective"; this is serious bussiness for them; and for all the oil/gas producing countries.

I don't need necessarily an answer. The question is primarily for your thinking.

@Akira

"eating his tie": not yet; but I have problems looking at him directly; sometimes he gives some information and I have to hear him; even so, I switch the channels from time to time, even if I loose what he say. He is not completely nuts, but with respect to Russia he's lost completely; Kouchner admitted it; and he is a diplomat currently.

Schroeder, the former German chancellor had a very good assesment: Saak. is a gambler - jucator la noroc: in traducerea romana a originalului- and is good G. is not a member of NATO. It is a good political evaluation.

------------------

From the legal pov:the Charter, 1966 Convention, etc., is Kossovo connected with SO/Abkh ? I believe SO has the right according to these documents, and K. case has no legal relevance.

If this is so, then all the world level propaganda of US/WE linked to Kossovo backfired in a form of a smoke screen Russia was able to use.

nabucco pipeline

Some thoughts on that pipeline project: "Nabucco Gas Pipeline International GmbH will be the only company in direct contact with the shippers (one-stop-shop), and will operate as an autonomous economic entity on the market, acting independently from its parent companies." Given this (planned) structure, it will be a huge endeavor to bring the participating countries on one common line of management. Reading Iranian, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan press releases, these countries are eager either to participate or to sabotage the project. So is Russia. This is really a hot issue in the region for the coming years.

@traveller

Thank you for your kind words and - another one - for you helping me not waste my time: the explanations from a previous post.

25% was a figure I heard some time ago. Of course is big, maybe reffers to BP's reserves; or maybe not. But I assume BP's Russian joint venture is "vital" for BP's reserves size.

"W.companies laughed": you understand now why - here, in EE - we are talking about WE/US stupidity. It is about a stubborn denial of reality, rejection which takes place - always - without going to see what happens here - in EE and Russia. W. oil companies mean the best bunch of oil specialists in the world; what's left to say ?

The chief of Intel Russia - an American - said 2 years ago: Russians are the best at solving problems, Indians are second, Americans the third. One can learn from here - and not to be scared; the top can be reversed.

@kappert

It wasn't "about oil vs SO/Abkh" in his piece which he wasn't right.

He is a German citizen, like yourself. Also, G. is a member of EU and one of the maintainers of economic activities in EU. And a huge exporter. The economic connections between Ru. and G. are (again) huge. Not to mention possible "behind the scenes" politics.

Since he took the matters in his hands to enlighten the "neutral" (and bourgeois, isn't it ?) german press, then: this is the context which determines the "look" of his analysis.
If you are an SAmerican, maybe you could write about geopolitical aspect only and about oil only. Even so, it would be dishonest: because part of elements who "creates" the WE answer is Russia initiated an aggresion: it was beyond defending it's peacekeepers; the oil part was hinted only by this "free excursions" of Russian forces; and this is an aggression; without these walks, you cannot distinguish betwwen legitimate response and pure aggression. Also an aggression against Georgians with Chechen and Osset. irregulars: they killed people on the spot(georgian witnesses appeared at romanian TV today). But he is not. I don't skip over Saak's actions, I am talking about R. answer which was overbroadcasted already; so since everybody on the globe knows, he cannot avoid any aspect.

Even if he wrote before all the events, attacking G. showed how far R. goes and so, by immediate "deduction", that NATO/EU is under attack - NATO idea was launched yesterday by a Rom.academic on international relations; I think he is right. So, not even the actors were indentified correctly.

It is not "oil" only; it is "oil bought legally" by EU from Azer. with the help of Geo. and Tur. via a pipepline privately operated by ...( it does not matter), pp found on georgian soil, under georgian soveireignity recognized by Russia. Only Georgia can decide the operation of the pp, because it has legitimate political control of the pp; this is the content of G's ownership.

The above paragraph is the "content" of oil item seen from Ger/EU pov. And the second paragraph of this post gives the context of his analysis which leads to the above meaning of "oil".

Second - and most importantly - Nabucco is under complete attack; the BTC was under an warning attack, it is not destroyed; but Nabucco has to be stoped for good. This is a "geopolitical" attack on EU itself. Only here, because Nab. does not exist yet, Mr.Fisch. can talk about "geopolitical"; but as long as he mentions the word attack, also.
This matters because EU - for a thousandth time - is directly implied; and Germany is over her head in this.
Geopolitical is for neutral observers only, kappert. Even Rom. is not directly affected; it is in indirect manner. Still, nobody stoped here short of "attack" issue. It is to obvious.

So, unless a politician even mediocre, which Mr.Fischer is not: foreign minister (!!!), says nothing about this details, he lies. More important, he did not mentioned EU, so he did not warned anybody in EU. And if these small details are known, then to whom this piece was addressed to ? To some guys who cannot put 2 to 2 together ?

I repeat: Mr.Fischer, an European - and German -put aside EU and G's borders; since Geo. is a NATO candidate, this also matters; Geo. itself is under attack - and it's population directly.

Mr.Fischer is green, left, green-left, etc. OK, I answered to his "hidden" ideological premise.
But it does not matter: anybody - an European - who paints the same "image" is dishonest, ideology or not. And this does not mean "we should attack Russia for a change"; but we need to know here who the targets are.

The existence of pink (3)

"I agree to almost everything".
 
Please provide me wth an example of something from that piece on Georgia you DON'T agree with.
 
 
btw: What has Birmingham got to do with the question I asked you?

hitchens

I agree to almost everything. The difference between Birmingham UK and AL is the rainfall i.e. sunshine hours.

The existence of pink (2)

@ kappert
 
Take a look at this recent piece written by Peter Hitchens entitled "Will someone send this sabre-rattling twit a history book".
 
see: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/
 
Then tell me if there is any part of that analysis with which you would disagree.
 
Thank you. 

@ mdavid

I think 25% is too high.
The problem with those figures is that they were originally assembled by the Soviet oil ministry, using Soviet technology.
Since Western companies started coming to the Russian fields the reserve figures have been climbing steadily because the Western methods are much more sophisticated.
The biggest joke was Gazprom. After the Soviet collapse Gazprom needed capital and their Western advisors told them to go on the New York stock exchange.
When an oil company goes on the stock exchange they have to list their assets, here the reserves were the main assets.
The US oil companies laughed when they heard the Soviet figures for Gazprom until Western teams of geologists and specialists came back after a year of studying the known Gazprom gas fields(they have many fields they didn't even touch). The Western analysts came to the conclusion that the known reserves were bigger than those of any Western oil/gas company.
It is very difficult to put percentages on those figures.

@mdavid - Craa~~~~~zy Saakashvili

Re: "I saw today Saak's interview on CNN: he is boring: democracy and freedom every 10 seconds"
 
When the Russians say that Saakers is a nut, I don't think they're just being insulting. I really think he is a lunatic.
 
Did you see him eating his tie?
 
America’s Crazy “Ally”   

re: 24HR

This evening (Sunday) kappert complains that:
 
"For almost 24 hrs you're discussing oil..."
 
 
On Wednesday, guess who initiated proceedings with the following post?
 
"This is a Russian-American competition for control of the strategic oil and gas reserves in this vast region..."

24hr

For almost 24hr you're discussing oil. After all, Mr Fischer was not so wrong, at all?!

@traveller

So, I was right with BP's share in Russia's oil: 25% of their oil known deposits ? Less than that ?
The laws are designed in purpose, I wonder BP did not figure it out- they must have political analysts; and a historian or two.
Two goals: to fool the foreigners like BP in case it needs be done, and to support the enrichment of those knowledgebeale - especially Kremlin's allies: the plunder of national resources to get the capital needeed by Kremlin's men.

But, I repeat: SO, K and Abkh. plays very well for Putin and his siloviki: propaganda reasons.

@Akira

From time to time I ask general questions, not necessarily related to concrete questions. I was "surfing" UN's site then precisely for one general question - that's why I read the Charter and 1966 Convention and other documents -,only afterwards I searched 1244 UNSC res.

You "showed" you have legal knowledge, hence some of my questions.

No, you were right: UN members has the freedom not to recognize indepedance claims. Correct !; if this is 1244 all about...

Also, my phrasing has some problems - I think faster than I write (!!). Yes, Klaus mentioned Russia. But I felt the need to add information to what Russia's "concrete" "guilt" could be: the effect of "overwhelming response". Maybe it was pointless, given Klaus' remark. This in turn justifies WE actions: you know they used that. I wished to introduce and a third side in this picture. But... this is debatable..

The SO and Abkh. has the right to indep. Still, US and comp. have the - legal -right to reject it, even without justifications.
You say they are morally wrong if they do ? Agree, but politics is "morally neutral"...or so what they say...

I saw today Saak's interview on CNN: he is boring: democracy and freedom every 10 seconds. Either he is scared - or he knows the entire game. I switched channels every now and then.

Russian military presence: I know about the bases; I answered to "military presence since 1801". I "picked" the operational meaning of your point, trying to prove here you are not right. I don't think they inherited the obligation of hosting a "walkable" army unit, like 57th Army is now:inside Gori now, outside Gori again, etc. Remember: Medvedev, Serghei Ivanov et comp. justified their presence other way; as for their moves they denied the trops are on the move , but afterwards they mentioned security reasons - connected with Saak's actions, not with legal framework of post USSR.
Akira, it does not matter: preventive actions were invoked here also; as Nezavisimaia gazeta wrote: we do what US does.

The Russian bases status was not mentioned these days; they probably were outside the action. 57th came from Russian territory.
But from now on it will be interesting: Russians will reject the withdrawall of these bases.

Akira, I differ with you on: my tone is less stronger and I am skeptic on invoking moral in all these matters. But WE m.o. is criminal sometimes. If you read my posts carefully you will see that. I posted about politics to prove Mr. Trevino's approach is not right. Also, I preffer not to restrain myself to legal matters. At least, the region in which I live makes me so.

@ mdavid

I was practically permanently in Russia when BP invested in TNK.
I thought it was a mistake but the attraction of the big reserves owned by TNK was too big.
The fact that I thought it was a mistake, since at the same time I was "studying" the Russian impossible tax-code and I saw that the premises for normal business were not there; does not mean that Russia has the right to steal from BP and from Shell.
For Russia "stealing", "killing" and generally any illegal international action is always justified when it's in the "intrest" of Russia.
The Russian people accept this without any qualms and this has given Russian leaders always a free hand for any foreign or domestic adventure. Couple to that the present material greed of the top personalities and you have a maffia state. Putin has become a billionaire with the Gazprom shares and the "Baikal" comedy.
THAT'S the problem, not the poor Chechens, Abkhaz or Ossetians which are pawns in the Russian strategy, with or without Kosovo, Russia has never been short in their search of explanations for a foreign operation.
In this case it's the disruption of the axis Azeri/Georgia/Turkey and the connecting oil-and gas transport control from Central Asia and the Caspian Sea which was the target, combined with the Iran link.
The move was brilliantly executed but it's foreign strategy, not the defense of the poor local populations.
The only valid reaction is the legal seizure of the Russian assets, inclusive Putin's in the world whereever they are, by BP and by Georgia, for reparations.
I don't know if those entities will have the guts but it would be enormously effective. You give the bear a bloody nose and he withdraws and has respect for the puncher, Russian history.

@traveller

thank you for your information on Russia, anyway; it is wellcomed.

Btw. I try to read all the posts here with as much attention I can. You posted another detailed post on Russia's actions; a kind of "bottom line". I saw it.

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Editing the previous post: Saak was a pawn for WE to start a justified attack of WE/US on Russia after Saak's crazy actions would have been met by this "geopolitical" attack of Russia which in turn Russia would have considered as a an oportunity to get justification for a pending action. It was no secret for WE/US. They watched the region carefully. I hope my english is not a big problem for you to understand what I wrote - the ideas at least...

US/WE officials look relaxed: not just a deduction, I saw them. They are calm, and not nervous:Gates, Sarkozy, Merkel, Lugar - today on CNN. Richard Horner, former Ambassador to Nato was almost in extatic state yesterday. Saak is extremely "calm"... OK, maybe Merkel is somehow furious, but even her "fury" looks strange; or maybe I am paranoic (!).

@traveller

When I heard BP has a joint venture of that size in Russia - many years ago - I asked myself why are they (BP) doing this ? The course of today was predicatble before the joint venture started; you may not believe me, but you also know the reasons I had. I am surprised BP is still in Russia; maybe they will be lucky in the end, but BP leaving Russia - or staying for other type of arrangements with much more state control attached to them - is the only way I see now - as several years before. Oil resources as political weapons were obvious even during Brezhnev's years. You know why Ceausescu built Cernavoda reactor. Putin just took it from there.

My reasoning was simple, traveller. If Ru. wants to stay a world power a la russe: with an explicit influence to scare people they had only one way to do it - military force was "downplayed", ideological ways were finished, so economy was left and it was the only way. Creating a US like economy does not bring immediate influence - again Russian "style" - so, to create such an influence and to adapt the plans to Russia's conditions what was the way to go ? Resources: oil and gas they have plenty. And steel, aluminium, also. With them you have political control of entire economies and for decades.So, it was obvious Ieltsin period was an exception. TNK is part of this processas as an "ally" of kremlin, like other economic institutions and bussinessmen. BP's share of Russia's resources is too big, if my knowledge is correct.

You did not read my posts with attention. I posted extensively on geopolitical reasons of Russia today. In fact, almost all my posts were addressed to Mr. Trevino: to stop the military approach, and get into political side when it comes about Russia's intentions. They are all in one, military side being determined by the political side.

But K's case is a mistake and it is use by Russia; I use partially the determined tone of Akira because K, SO and Abkh. are mistakes. Also Saak risked his people lifes, even the BJ's commentaters (Handllery, Trevino) wrote about Saak. If there is a fact there, I try not to avoid it, traveller. And depending of the scale of the mistake, the tone should be choosen likewise.

Traveller: Russia's answer would have been reaching the borders of SO and, just maybe, with advances within G.itself, but at this scale. If it was only SO. But K. acts like a smoke curtain. Confusion reigns there so for several days - needed by Ru. - they could do what they want. It does not matter if K's mentioning is legitimate or not, or if Ru. has geopolitical reasons only. Saak's actions were a good reason for Ru. to intervene: they amagalmated everything here. Why ? Because US/WE made from K. a beacon of propaganda.

My guess is SO and Abkh. have nothing to do with K - from the legal pov. They may claim independance without being connected with K's case itself. They have a better case.

Also: it stroke me yesterday - a former diplomat said something on TV - Saak was chosen - without knowing ? - as a perfect pawn to attack Russia with a smart propaganda operation. By the WE - Fr. and Ger. - and US.
Georgia's NATO membership was the starting point and is still on the table. Complicated and cynnical game, traveller. You can figure out the details

I will give you one hint: Dateline London from BBCWNews features from time to time a french journalist, Marc Roche from Le Monde: a leftist and nationalist, not smart, but a spiner of situations. Today he said Poland is in her right to host the shield, it is NATO country, it is a NATO shield, etc. also:Why Russia has any bussiness in it ? Le Monde was until now acid towards Poland, the shield, Czech republic, look they have opposition in these countries against the shield, US is obssesed with this shield, is provoking Russia, etc.
Russia gave the reason to be under a "justifiable" attack without chances to win. WE/US officials are extremely relaxed. Russia proved to be aggresive, etc. The "small" problem is just some Georgians, Ossetians, etc.

Cases of N. Ireland & Quebec vs Kosovo, South Ossetia & Abkhazia

re: "I agree with Klaus. But Russia also attacked whatever political stability was in Georgia."
 
But Klaus said both R & G are to blame.
 
Besides, Georgia is not stable, and Sukassfeelie is clearly mentally deranged.

See America’s Crazy “Ally” Re: "It would be better if Georgians would accept SO's and A's independance."
 
I agree.
 
I don't that DeValera was right to divide Ireland, but he was the Free State's leader, and for him, having a Roman Catholic 3/4 Ireland was more important than having a united autonomous Ireland within the UK.

A choice was made.
 
Georgian rulers are too weak and arrogant to accept that they should have settled with S.O. & A. years ago. It would have strengthened Georgia and made them more stable and prosperous by now.

Re: "I am mdavid, not ROMAN" 

I know. Just a nickname for Romanian. No offence.

"Russia's troops had no right to be there after Georgia declared independance in 1991."
 
I don't think that's true. Georgia also inherited certain obligations and treaties of the USSR's Georgian republic.

Soviet bases which pass to Russia are not necessarily obliged to immediately withdraw. It depends on the circumstances. For that matter, they could have passed to Georgian control. It depends.
 
This is why the Canadian government passes laws detailing what is required for Quebec independence, and how federal properties are to be negotiated in the event that should happen.
Another related point: 99% of Northern Ireland's resident's are entitled to joint British-Irish nationality, as are millions of residents of England, Scotland, Wales, The Isle of Man, and the Rep. of Ireland. Also people could travel freely between the two countries even before the EEC/EU era.

And even now, Irish citizens can vote in the UK.
 
All of the above civilized actions make it even more inexplicable why the UK and Canada would get involved in Balkan and Caucasian territorial disputes.

@ Russian apologist

I know Russian individuals are generous, warm and big hearted.
However they never stood up against brutal dictatorship, except once and that was the bravery of one man: Yeltsin.
He never repeated it again and lost track of his aims.
Russians are individually mostly marvelous human beings, but as a group they are slaves to their regime, whoever is in charge.
Russians have no problem killing political ennemies, their whole history is witness to that.
My personal hundreds of boozy and warm discussions with Russians have given me a serious insight in the Russian soul.