Music and the Rise and Decline of Western Civilization

This text overlaps with a few of my earlier essays like Why Muslims Like Hitler, but Not Mozart. I have had some interesting discussions with Ohmyrus, the essayist who runs the Democracy Reform blog. He is a Chinese man who appreciates aspects of Western civilization that many Westerners have forgotten or rejected. He is not unique in this regard. One of the best books about European culture is Defending the West by the former Muslim Ibn Warraq, who was born in the Indian subcontinent. As a native European it is strange to notice how some (non-Muslim) Asians apparently appreciate my civilization more than intellectuals in my own country do. The Iranian-born ex-Muslim Ali Sina denounces Western Multiculturalism in his book Understanding Muhammad, which I have reviewed online:

“If any culture needs to be preserved, it is the Western, Helleno-Christian culture. It is this culture that is facing extinction….We owe our freedom and modern civilization to Western culture. It is this culture that is now under attack and needs protection.”

Ohmyrus believes, like myself, that the West is in decline, not just in relative terms as a percentage of the global economy or population but in real terms. He points to structural flaws in our democratic political system, which “tends to divide people, pitting one race against another and one economic class against another” and is by the nature of its short election periods not well suited for long-term planning. European civilization reached its peak when it was pre-democratic, and Muslims have found it easier to penetrate democratic than pre-democratic Europe. In nineteenth century Britain, Queen Victoria and the aristocracy were not as powerful as their ancestors had been, but they wielded more power than today. Power was divided between the monarch, the House of Lords and the House of Commons in Parliament. This corresponds to what ancient political theorists such as Aristotle would have called a good balance between the monarchic, the aristocratic and the democratic elements of society.

Ohmyrus, who is a Christian, believes that one of the reasons why the Scientific Revolution took place in Europe and not in Asia is Christianity, which taught people that God had created the universe according rational laws which could to some extent be discovered and described by humans. While the West originally enjoyed more free speech and free inquiry than most other societies, in some critical aspects related to immigration, free discourse in the West has in recent years become stifled by ideological censorship. As he states, “Anyone suggesting that some races are more intelligent than another is labeled a racist and even threatened prosecution for a hate crime. Substitute ‘heretic’ for ‘racist’ and we are almost back in medieval times. But over here in Asia, there is hardly any problem in discussing it.”

Ohmyrus thinks that Western civilization is currently living off the cultural capital produced in earlier times when power lay in the hands of a better educated elite whose personal interests coincided with the long term interests of the country. This may be partly true, but I personally believe that one of the greatest problems facing us today is precisely the fact that the interests of Western nation states do not always overlap with the narrow interests of the elites. In previous generations, rich and influential individuals would often support nation states not only emotionally but also pragmatically in order to enhance their own wealth and power. In the age of international organizations and powerful multinational corporations that wield more power than many smaller countries, this is no longer the case. These same elites will now look to other organizations and tools to further their personal interests and careers.The democratic system has its flaws but worked to some extent as long as there was sense of being a demos, a people with a shared identity and common ethnic interests. This is gradually breaking down in Western countries, starting from the top. Powerful groups frequently have more in common with the elites in other countries than they have with average citizens in their own. Without a pre-political loyalty, emotional ties or even a pragmatic interest in supporting nation states, the democratic system becomes a vehicle for distributing favors to your friends at home and abroad, for betraying your voters and hopefully ensuring a lucrative international career along the way. You will have few moral scruples against importing voters from abroad for maintaining power or because your business friends who provide you with financial support desire access to cheap labor. This process is related to technological globalization but has gone further in the self-loathing West than in any other civilization.

In Western Europe, much of the real power has been transferred to the unelected organs of the European Union. Between 1999 and 2004, 84 percent of the legal acts in Germany – and the majority in all EU member states - stemmed from Brussels. National elections are becoming an increasingly empty ritual. The important issues have been settled behind closed doors. Our daily lives are run by a bloated bureaucracy, which is becoming increasingly transnational.

In the eyes of the left-wing American theorist Noam Chomsky, “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.” In most Western countries the public has a choice between left-wing candidates who champion mass immigration and “right-wing” candidates who also champion mass immigration and implement the left-wing agenda at a slightly slower pace. This is called “freedom.” The mass media present a biased and ideologically filtered view of the world. The fact that members of the media and the academia tend to be more, sometimes a lot more, left-leaning politically than the average populace is well-documented.

This situation is intensified by the fact that globalization of communications and transportation, ironically to a large extent created by European and Western inventions, puts severe pressure on our nations in ways which were unthinkable a few generations ago. When the Christian Gospels were written down at the end of the first century AD, the population of the Roman Empire was maybe 60 million people. This mirrors the annual population growth in the early twenty-first century. In other words: The global population grows by another Roman Empire every single year. Our system wasn’t designed to cope with such numbers.

Virtually all Western countries have lost control over their borders, or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the political elites, substantially aided by multinational corporations and cheaper travel, have deliberately vacated such control. This is not a sustainable situation. You can call your political system a democracy, a dictatorship, a republic, a monarchy or whatever you want to, but a country that does not control its territory will eventually die.

I am increasingly supporting the conclusion that the political and economic elites throughout the Western world are cooperating on dismantling their nation states in favor of a new, global world order. Swamping their countries with immigration is one step in this planned “creative destruction.” Author Bat Ye’or in her well-researched book Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis from 2005 documents how the European Union is actively collaborating with the Arabic-Islamic world on promoting Muslim immigration and culture in Europe. I myself wrote a book entitled Defeating Eurabia while going through her claims, and found them to be sound.A flaw frequently pointed out in the democratic system is that the “common man” is on average not smart enough to run a country, but when it comes to promoting Multiculturalism and mass immigration of alien and often hostile peoples it is in every single Western country the political, economic and academic elites who are pushing for this. Resistance to these suicidal policies comes from the common man. Another problem is that in the post-Enlightenment ideological environment, especially after Marxism, there is a tendency among some educated elites to view the common man as a guinea pig for their social experiments.

The West is a non-traditionalist civilization. We have unquestionably made great advances that no other civilization has done before us, but maybe the price we pay for this is that we also make mistakes that nobody has done before us. Organized science is a modern Western invention. Organized national suicide, too, is a modern Western invention. Our university system once represented a great comparative advantage for Europe vis-à-vis other civilizations. Today that same system is undermining the very civilization that gave birth to it.

Marxists have essentially completed their Gramscian “Long March” through the institutions of the Western world during the second half of the twentieth century, accelerating from the 1960s on with the Western Cultural Revolution. Young Westerners are at best taught indifference, at worst outright hatred, toward their own cultural heritage and civilization. The irony in this is that it is precisely the more educated groups who are the most anti-Western ones because they have spent many years absorbing anti-Western teachings.If you have one brainwashed generation then you have a problem. If you have two brainwashed generations then you have a very serious problem. If you have three brainwashed generations then you have a problem that is so big that it becomes difficult to solve, because few in living memory can remember how it was to have a sane worldview. We are now fast approaching a point where young Westerners, indoctrinated with anti-Western hatred, not only do not receive a correction from their parents, but in many cases not even from their grandparents. By then we have reached a serious cultural discontinuity.As much as I personally loathe admitting it, Marxists and other anti-Western forces have been far more successful at staging a slow, “permanent” revolution in the West than they ever were at staging an armed revolution. They have partly succeeded in their goal of eradicating Western civilization from within and are now working hard to physically eradicate the European peoples who created this civilization to ensure that it cannot be rebuilt in the future, either. They achieved this feat not by gaining control over the means of production but over the means of indoctrination, the mass media and the education system.

Out of all the criticism against Europeans, the claim of “Eurocentrism” is the most unfair. All cultures are ethnocentric to some degree. Frankly, I would be tempted to say that the default position of mankind is that “We are the best people, the others are barbarians.” I'm not going to claim that you cannot find serious cases of bigotry in European history. You can. But what is unique about Europe is our ability to sometimes transcend this basic human impulse. Even during the colonial period, Western Europeans could show an unusual degree of curiosity about other cultures and their history. This is one of the major reasons why archaeology and comparative linguistics were invented by Europeans; we were one of the least ethnocentric groups, yet for some reason the only ones who are denounced for our alleged ethnocentrism.The problem is that whites are now the only ethnic group on the planet who are not allowed to retain distinct countries or pride in their heritage. This is creating a wave of quietly simmering anger against immigration and at least as much against Western authorities, rightly perceived as indifferent or hostile to their interests. It is debatable whether supporting a “Christian revival” is the right solution to this situation since Christianity promotes altruism, self-criticism and universalism, while some of the greatest problems of the white West today are caused by deranged altruism, pathological self-criticism and excessive universalism.

You can successfully track the rise and decline of Western civilization through music. There are other ways to do this, of course, but music is as good as any, and better than most. With the likes of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, it is not bigotry to say that Europeans created some of the greatest music any civilization on this planet has ever done. During the same time period we also made advances in science and technology that no other civilization had ever done before us. There appears to be a close correlation between the sciences and the arts. Perhaps it has something to do with cultural confidence and sense of purpose, or lack of such.Europeans still made good music in the nineteenth century, but fewer great names were produced in the twentieth. By the early twenty-first century, many Europeans don’t even listen to the composers we once had. The only people who take European Classical music seriously today are East Asians and maybe some people in the eastern half of Europe, the only part of the continent that still looks like Europe. If you want to see a simple illustration of cultural decline you can listen to basically anything by Mozart and then turn on the TV and see rap stars cursing, doing drugs and bragging about their criminal “gangster” lifestyle.

Asians adopt some of the highest cultural achievements of European civilization at a time when many people of European descent themselves appear to be on the verge of forgetting them, which is symbolic on many levels. On the other hand, Asians are more or less immune to the self-loathing of the contemporary West. I see this as a sign that they appropriate the best aspects of the Western traditions but stay away from the worst ones, which makes sense.

China had fine instruments and a well-developed musical tradition at least as far back as the Zhou period (1122-256 BC). The word “music” was written with the same character as “enjoyment.” There is no direct equivalent to Mozart or Beethoven in Asia, but perhaps the fact that they have such an ancient and deeply-rooted native tradition makes in easier for East Asians to appreciate the fruits of other musical cultures. David P. Goldman, who writes under the pen name “Spengler” for the Asia Times Online, thinks that “The present shift in intellectual capital in favor of the East has no precedent in world history.” According to him, European Classical music “produces better minds, and promotes success in other fields.” A high proportion of the students at top Western musical schools are now Koreans, Chinese and Japanese, followed by Eastern Europeans. There are comparatively few North Americans or Western Europeans among the best instrumentalists.

According to Spengler, “China has embraced the least Chinese, and the most explicitly Western, of all art forms. Even the best Chinese musicians still depend on Western mentors. [Pianist] Lang Lang may be a star, but in some respects he remains an apprentice in the pantheon of Western musicians. The Chinese, in some ways the most arrogant of peoples, can elicit a deadly kind of humility in matters of learning. Their eclecticism befits an empire that is determined to succeed, as opposed to a mere nation that needs to console itself by sticking to its supposed cultural roots. Great empires transcend national culture and naturalize the culture they require.” Albert Einstein received a thorough philosophical education by studying Kant, Schopenhauer, Hume and Spinoza in addition to mathematics and the physical theories of Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday and James Maxwell. This taught him how to think abstractly about space and time. He was also an enthusiastic amateur musician and would play his violin as a way of thinking through a difficult physics problem. His mother was an accomplished pianist and pushed for him to take violin lessons. At first he chafed at the mechanical discipline of the instruction, but after being exposed to Bach and to Mozart’s sonatas, music became magical to him. Author Walter Isaacson writes in his biography Einstein: His Life and Universe:

“‘Mozart’s music is so pure and beautiful that I see it as a reflection of the inner beauty of the universe itself,’ he later told a friend. ‘Of course,’ he added in a remark that reflected his view of math and physics as well as of Mozart, ‘like all great beauty, his music was pure simplicity.’ Music was no mere diversion. On the contrary, it helped him think. ‘Whenever he felt that he had come to the end of the road or faced a difficult challenge in his work,’ said his son Hans Albert, ‘he would take refuge in music and that would solve all his difficulties.’ The violin thus proved useful during the years he lived alone in Berlin, wrestling with general relativity. ‘He would often play his violin in his kitchen late at night, improvising melodies while he pondered complicated problems,’ a friend recalled. ‘Then, suddenly, in the middle of playing, he would announce excitedly, ‘I’ve got it!’ As if by inspiration, the answer to the problem would have come to him in the midst of music.’ His appreciation for music, and especially for Mozart, may have reflected his feel for the harmony of the universe.”

Einstein was not as fond of Ludwig van Beethoven as he was of Johann Sebastian Bach, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and Franz Schubert. According to Walter Isaacson, “What Einstein appreciated in Mozart and Bach was the clear architectural structure that made their music seem ‘deterministic’ and, like his own favorite scientific theories, plucked from the universe rather than composed. ‘Beethoven created his music,’ Einstein once said, but ‘Mozart’s music is so pure it seems to have been ever-present in the universe.’ He contrasted Beethoven with Bach: ‘I feel uncomfortable listening to Beethoven. I think he is too personal, almost naked. Give me Bach, rather, and then more Bach.’ He also admired Schubert for his ‘superlative ability to express emotion.’ But in a questionnaire he once filled out, he was critical about other composers in ways that reflect some of his scientific sentiments: Handel had ‘a certain shallowness’; Mendelssohn displayed ‘considerable talent but an indefinable lack of depth that often leads to banality’; Wagner had a ‘lack of architectural structure I see as decadence’; and Strauss was ‘gifted but without inner truth.’”

The Russian ex-pat author Alexander Boot was a philology graduate of Moscow University under the Communist system during the Cold War, lectured on English and American literature and wrote art criticism before getting into trouble with the KGB, the secret police and espionage organization of the Soviet Union. Boot emigrated to the West in 1973 only to discover that the West that he admired and was seeking no longer existed. This inspired a life-long quest for an explanation, some of it detailed in his book How the West Was Lost.

Alexander Boot has a deeply Christian way of seeing the world, which I as a non-believer obviously do not always share, but he brings fresh and unusual perspectives to analysis and to history, which can often prove fruitful. In his view, “Religion, for all the misdeeds committed by it or in its name, was the foundation on which Westman culture and civilization had been erected. Destroy the foundation, and down comes the whole structure with a big thud.”

Boot sees Western history as a prolonged internal struggle between two different beings which he calls Modman and Westman, which Modman eventually won. Saint Paul was a Roman Christian and the first Westman. Modman saw himself as close to divine; Jesus Christ, God as man, had been replaced by Modman as God. For Modman to become God the old God had to die first. Modman followers are introspective because their own self-expression has taken on huge proportions. Boot traces the development of Western civilization through art and ideas, but especially music since “nothing illuminates culture as much as music.”

He argues that you can find the early seeds of some ideological perversions already in Beethoven at the turn of the nineteenth century, post-French Revolution, which did not exist in the compositions of Mozart or Haydn, let alone Bach. There was a new type of artist: the conscious innovator. Boot is not saying that music should remain unchanged. Just like life itself, music cannot remain static. Bach was not identical to those before him, and Haydn was not like Bach. With Mozart, Classicism had been taken as far as it could go. Something new would inevitably develop, but Beethoven pushed the limits in both good and bad ways:

“Beethoven, a genius though he was, had Modman tendencies and drew not only human but even artistic inspiration from the 1789-1815 upheaval in France. This manifested itself either directly, in pieces like his 3rd Symphony and the 5th Piano Concerto, or indirectly in the bravura finales of many of his other works. In common with most Modmen, Beethoven believed that the future was knowable, plannable and rationally mouldable, which is why it had to be glorious.”

Interestingly enough I have heard a few people from former Communist countries state that they do not like Beethoven because they sense some form of ideological megalomania underlying his music. Personally, I would say that a man who could compose timeless and beautiful pieces of music such as the Moonlight Sonata cannot have been all bad, but it is undoubtedly true that he was not a humble craftsman like Bach was. Alexander Boot is not claiming that Beethoven produced bad pieces, something a genius like him was incapable of doing, but he made a conscious attempt to break the old forms just for the sake of breaking them, and by doing so paved the way for more destructive personalities of lesser talent:

“Art began to worship at the altar of subjective originality rather than objective truth. Yet, until the nineteenth century it had been universally accepted that looking for truth was the real purpose of art. Because of that, traditional forms had a liberating rather than constricting effect. The artist could take the canonical foundation of his work as a given and concentrate instead on the higher goal. As long as truth did emerge, it did not matter to the artist whether he was the first to uncover it or the thousandth. Westman did not see life as a race, and he was free of the hubristic desire to be original at any cost.”

This humble respect for tradition did not lead to artistic cloning, as an artist seeking a higher truth can only find a vision of it in his own soul, which means that his vision of truth will always be individual. He was largely immune to the self-deification of Modman.

According to Boot, “great music cannot survive in a free-market way while remaining great music” because “serious art was not designed, and cannot be produced, for large numbers. If it is, it stops being serious art.” The twentieth century was the age of mass consumers, not the aristocratic patrons who supported Mozart, and “As audiences became mass-produced, so did performers.” Consequently, “Music had to be downgraded to the status of entertainment – serious entertainment to be sure, but not something meeting any claim to enigmatic nature.”

Alexander Boot’s basic conclusion is that the West is dead, but as a Christian man he also believes in resurrection and in life after death. Perhaps that is not a bad summary.



RE: Flemings

Interesting question. I was taught that the Flemish are descendants of the Salian Franks, with Celtic admixture. There was also some Ingaevonic influence, if I'm not mistaken, but I think that was mostly limited to language. I'm far from an expert on this so I hope that Capitão André or others will be able to shed more light on this.

In the meantime, here's a link to the Benelux & France DNA Ancestry project. Lots of fascinating stuff there.

Sigh...

All I asked for was the scriptural reference that compels Sola Scriptura. I don't care to wade through theoligical dissertations. It should be simple enough, shouldn't it?

The fact that you refuse to do so indicates that you haven't a leg to stand on.

And whining about my critiques of your logical fallacies and debating problems isn't going to change your situation. Man up, kid!

You're "disappointed"? How the hell do you think I feel? How does one debate any issue when the person you're debating cannot argue logically? I wasted my time correcting your logical fallacies instead of addressing any content! Content isn't worth crap if it's presented with no reasoning!

Flemings

Do you have any details on which Germanic tribes they are descended from? The Toxandrian Franks, perhaps? The Batavians?

Disappointment

You continue to amaze me and you disappoint me in the rather denigrating way you address me. Clearly you doubt my sincerity as if by questioning your view I have purposely intended to vilify you and your religious beliefs. So do you seriously expect me to respond to yet another one of your personal attacks and insults? I wrote that my summary was intended for others to know what this argument was about and for those interested to be aware of my take on this issue. Write your own summary in beautifully written English as befitting of a native English speaker to defend your case, allowing the reader to judge for himself.

The Protestant issue and Sola Scriptura are things you brought up and I believe these to be largely irrelevant to the original topic of discussion. So I am not going to waste any more time of my precious time arguing with you in favor of Sola Scriptura. Check the link I provided earlier in one of my replies (sorry, I'm too lazy to insert html tags this time). It is a database containing a massive amounts of articles written by Reformed theologians. If you don't find your answer there I don't know where you'll find it.

The Pale Rider, who - among other things - is going to continue for another week studying your native language (yes, I must be insane), salutes you.

@ PR and atheling

I certainly am not going to interpose myself as a judge between two such educated theological combatants. Is what is at stake the Deuteronomic view that God rewards fidelity and punishes betrayal in this world? I doubt you two disagree on the orthodox view that all comes about by His providence, and the most horrible evils may be sent to punish us, or test us, or improve us. Job refused to curse God and die. He is the hero in the face of providential trials.

The Chinese have their own destiny. We don't know how their present relative prosperity will play out or the role that their growing Christianity is playing or will play. I think it is a refuge in a miserable, anxious, insecure, spiritually impoverished society, and as such a refuge may help people survive the crises that must come with the rise of their empire. Thus Christianity may provide material and/or spiritual rewards to the Chinese. I only know there are very courageous Chinese Christians willing to bear witness at great risk, compared to those who can enjoy their Christianity without even taking the risk of proselytizing neighbors and co-workers. Best wishes.

Dacapo! Dacapo!

Apolgies to all, but Wagner does bring out the self-indulgent in us all.
Liebstod indeed, bravo to the audience as well. KO, Atlanticist, Dacapo!

@KO

So you don't see logical fallacies in pale rider's monologues? Pointing them out are not ad hominems. Showing the similarities in faulty Christian theology and epistemology with that of Islam are not ad hominems.

Egotism

@pale rider:

Once again, you misconstrue what I write. English is not your first language, but this is beyond miscomprehension - is it willful distortion?

You call me "arrogant", yet you refuse to take responsibility for your debating errors. Can you not see where your arguments are full of holes and irrationalities? How can you expect a person to debate someone who does not adhere to rules of rational discourse? You have made false conclusions over and over again, while I have pointed them out, and you call me "arrogant"?

Can you answer me that? Also, you still have not provided proof of the biblical justification for Sola Scriptura.

You respond with your ego, rather than with your brain. Not good.

Summary

KO, I've decided to write a summary of my views because of what you wrote. I hope it will clarify my position to others who have been or will be reading the comments below. This is a summary of what I have said only, and it is not intending to continue the debate since I believe it has become pointless.

1. Atheling commented on Christianity in China earlier in this thread, asserting that the spread of Christianity in China is leading or helping China to become a more prosperous and mighty nation, citing that Western decline coincides with a loss of Christian faith. She also quoted from the Genesis account, notably Genesis 1:28, to support her view.

2. I disagree strongly with this view because (a) I do not believe such a principle is taught in Scripture, and (b) that both ancient and contemporary history provide plenty of examples showing that nations can be extremely mighty and prosperous while flat out rejecting any kind of Christianity, either as a civilization or as the government of the nation.

3. On a theological level this topic has everything to do with the nature of God's Kingdom. Since Atheling used Scripture to defend her view, I referred to Scripture myself, explaining that I believe Scripture teaches that the Kingdom of God is not of this world, and that Christian believers are part of a heavenly Kingdom that transcends earthly boundaries.

4. In that sense, I do not believe there are any truly Christian nations. At least, not in the sense that an entire nation is beyond doubt part of the invisible sphere of God's Kingdom. A nation can be officially Christian, its subjects may be part of visible manifestations of God's Kingdom, but this does not mean the entire nation and all individuals that belong to it are indeed holy unto God. Any true believers regardless of their ethnic background constitute a godly nation. 1 Peter 2:9-17

5. To further demonstrate what I meant, I referred to the temptation of Christ (Luke 4) while fasting in the desert. Satan offered Christ all kingdoms on earth, if only He would bow to him. From this we learn that the world and its kingdoms are imperfect because they - unlike God's Church - are headed by fallible men, even though civil authorities are generally to be respected by Christians as God has appointed all governments and may use even wicked ones to achieve His own ends.

6. There is no Scripture that says the promises believers inherit include worldly riches. Much rather, Christ tells His disciples to seek a reward in heaven. Whoever links faith to prosperity does injustice to the principle of catholicity, which is that there is no Greek or Jew in Christ. Christians are, by faith, heirs according to the promise God gave to Abraham and Israel, i.e. that He would send His anointed one to rule His people, writing the Law in their hearts and minds. We find no promise of earthly riches to the NT Church, as the Church in Christ is not a chosen ethnic nation as ancient Israel was.

7. Atheling objected, saying that I was employing the principle of Sola Scriptura. I believe she was misquoting scripture, which is why I questioned her views. I maintain that the fact that I happen to believe in Sola Scriptura (i.e. all doctrines of the Church and its synods and councils [etc] must be biblically founded) as a Protestant, is irrelevant to this discussion as my objection was to Atheling's assertions and I had no intention to attack her being Roman Catholic. As a matter of fact I was not even aware of her being RC.

Regards.

Liebstod?

@ kappert
 
http://members.tripod.com/~avengers_soundpage/files.htm
 
 
* carl schmidt singing 'mein liebling, mein rose'.

Regrettable

Looks like we have reached the Liebestod. Pity. PR and atheling, you are full of interesting thoughts and information, but when they are framed in violent ad hominem argument it is too unpleasant to read them, at least in this short lifetime. Though perhaps some perceptive critic will undertake the chore and tell us lightweights that the key to all conservative thought is buried in your vitriolic dialogue! I look forward to your future contributions, which I do not doubt will be of interest.

I am no expert in blog etiquette, but it might be worthwhile, when insulted, to terminate the exchange or ignore the insult and move on. (I make an exception for the tradition of kappert-baiting, out of deference, and perhaps for any insult witty enough to pay its way.) Otherwise the blogspace quickly becomes cluttered.

@ Atheling

You're still whining about Sola Scriptura? This is not a theological debate site. Write to the Pope, I'm sure he'll be able to give you a satisfiable explanation of this 'damnable heresy'.

You turned a simple disagreement from my part into a personal and theological debate, which was never my intention. I've had about enough of your arrogant claims and personal attacks.

Frankly, you can think whatever you like about me. I don't take advice from people who call me ill-educated, insinuate I am a simplistic, rabid, irrational zealot, and claim I am not much different from a Muslim.

PS: "Pwned" is not English. Only ill-educated computer game addict use it. Surely you're not one of those?

A word of advice: My

A word of advice:

My criticism of you is not about your beliefs.  It’s about the way you arrived at them and how you hold onto them.

I do not answer your (sometimes wild) accusations or points, because it does no good when the person with whom you debate cannot argue reasonably.  You have made illogical leaps and conclusions, non sequitors and red herrings that require too much work to address.  I just don’t have the time or inclination to deal with it.  But I would take some logic and rhetorical analysis type classes to help you out with it, especially if you wish engage in proselytization or apologetics.

Your criticisms of the failings of the Church are not always without merit.  But it does not perturb me because I understand the frailties of human nature.  Following Christ does not necessarily mean one will automatically become perfect.  Very few do.  We call them saints.  And I have noticed that the critics of the Church NEVER mention her glory in those who perfected the way of Christ.  An unbalanced view, it appears.

Pale rider, I do not believe you are a “bad” person.  But you are ill- educated in the way you reason.  This is why I compare your kind of Christianity with Islam, for Islam also possesses some irrational aspects in its theology and epistemology.   This turns atheists and agnostics away from conversion and reinforces their often unfair belief that all Christians are irrational, rabid zealots.   They will not be convinced of the truth about God if all you can say is, “It says so in the Bible!”  There is more to it than that. 
 

Insanity and Evasion

Still waiting to hear your evidence that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is scripturally based...

You call my writings "rantings"? It seems that two other people here have commented on the lengthy nonsensical ramblings you have inflicted upon this thread, and you call my writings "rantings"?

You have done nothing but spew incoherent non sequitors, red herrings, all sorts of logical fallacies and accusations drawn from... nothing. A case of what we Yanks call, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bulls***".

And yet, you are unable to answer my question honestly.

Face it, you've been pwned.

Oh, and yes, from your latest post, YOU ARE BLOODY CRAZY.

RE: More Flawed Thinking

You have no right to tell me that I cannot quote Scripture just because I do not subscribe to the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

True, but I do have a right to believe that you are being thoroughly inconsistent. You also certainly sounded like you were offended upon hearing that the New Testament does not endorse your personal observation that seems to suggest a relation between Christianity and national prosperity or secular power. You're dealing with the wrong person if you think I will refrain from objecting to your blatantly misquoting of the Genesis account to support your personal view, especially since you call yourself a Christian (no special treatment because you're RC though).

The rest of your rantings do not merit a response. Quite frankly I did not expect such nonsense such as your comparison Calvinism and Islam (no such thing as 'Islamism' actually) coming from you. Talking of mixing apples and oranges. I could easily draw comparisons between the RCC or the EOC and, say, Shi'i Islam. But that would be absurd, since these are superficial comparisons based on outward appearances. The substance of the two religions is too different and the major Islamic sects are not even as theologically divided as many Christian denominations are.

I will pretend I did not read your last phrase regarding my, uhm, mental health.

More Flawed Thinking

@pale rider:

Do you read? Did you read my statement which says (and I will post it in bold caps so you do not miss it):

CONTRA SOLA SCRIPTURA DOES NOT EQUAL NON SCRIPTURA.

You have no right to tell me that I cannot quote Scripture just because I do not subscribe to the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Again you are lying. You make the false assertion that I am now "offended" by "hearing the revealed Word of God"?

Are you bloody insane?

RE: @ PR and Atheling

I'm still baffled that my original response of atheling's view on Christianity in China lead to this type of argument. I did not write my original message to her with any feelings of superiority nor with any intention to attack her or 'convert' her to my beliefs. I wrote it as a Christian to another professing Christian. My point has continuously been that she should not quote scripture to back her view if she does not want to be countered with scripture. That any Christian would not want to hear Scripture seems inconceivable to me. So her being RC is really one of the lamest arguments I have ever heard. There are Roman Catholics out there who are not offended at hearing the revealed Word of God. In any case this is my last reply on the subject. This is not a debate site about theology after all. I have explained my views and I will let other readers judge for themselves which view they believe is correct.

@ atheling again

Tell me this: WHERE DID SCRIPTURE COME FROM? And when was it written? If the truth about God can come only from Scripture, then how did the early Christians know anything since THEY HAD NO SCRIPTURE FOR AT LEAST A CENTURY? Do please answer without evasions.

That was the Apostolic age during which the Apostles themselves as well as direct eye witnesses of Christ testified of the Word. Protestants do not deny that during the time that the New Testament had not been fully produced and the Bible did not yet exist as we know it today, the Spirit testified of the truth and God mercifully worked through the Church to assemble the books that were divinely inspired. Now that we have the Word of God, which, as in the days of the Israelites is to be the ultimately authority, we have no excuse for condoning unbiblical practices or doctrines that add to Scripture or diminish it. Christ Himself said He is the fulfillment of the Law (i.e. Torah) and not a letter was to be removed before the end of days (see here). He preached against the traditions an explanations of men (i.e. the Sadducee view that there is no resurrection of the body, or the hypocrisy regarding Sabbath day and the prejudices toward handicapped people) that were unscriptural. He explained the Torah to the Pharisees at the age of 12 and taught from the Scrolls in Synagogues to the people during His ministry on earth.

RE: More Personal Attacks

I have already explained Sola Scriptura as well as why I believe your claim about using reason and Scripture is erroneous and I am not going to repeat myself over and over.

Technically, you may not be a Muslim. But you certainly "reason" like one. I must find that article I read where someone wrote up an analysis on the similarities between Islamism and Calvinism.

Your arrogance is showing. And never mind that it was the Pope who perverted the Church to support the unchristian and unbliblical notion of a Holy War against infidels, similar to the concept of the Jihad that is inherently Islamic. If you like to believe Protestant theologians are idiots who are ignorant of history and ancient Greco-Roman philosophy, that's fine, but you are being intellectually dishonest.

Whereas I do not see individual Roman Catholics as my enemy, you consider us heretical Calvinists to be crypto-Muslims! I do agree we are a threat to the Roman Catholic established order though, albeit in a spiritual way.

You must have been raised by Jesuits to be so ignorant about the fact that before the 16th century Reformation, a lot of theologians held soteriological views that were very similar to conservative Lutherans and Calvinists. Never mind the Thomists, Augustinians and Dominicans. You equate the word Catholic to Roman Catholic, but you are quite mistaken in doing so. As an orthodox Protestant, I am dedicated to the principle of Catholicity.

You see the world as one in which man determines his own destiny. And whether men or nations accept Christianity or not will positively or negatively affect the world. If I understand you correctly, the entire world may potentially become Christian in your view. My worldview is one where God has foreordained all things and in which we are blinded and ignorant of the grand scheme of things. There are no truly Christian nations, the Kingdom of God consists of those who are adopted as sons through Christ, and this heavenly Kingdom transcends worldly divisions.

There is nothing even inherently Protestant about this view, it is a view that has been held by a lot of Christians throughout Church history, based not on human reasoning but on Scriptures. Any educated and intellectually honest Roman Catholic will acknowledge this.

What Have I Done?

Well, I think we have our Parsiful.

Sorry Kapitein you may end your Wagnarian days typecast as a dwarf.

Meanwhile, bravo! bravo! the new Isolde comes roaring back in a commanding performance.

I sense a production of the Flying Dutchman is in the air!

RE: Evasion

Talking of evasion, where are those papal bulls I asked you for to prove that the point of view you expressed at the beginning of this thread is official Roman Catholic teaching?

If you think I am not answering your question then it just goes to show your ignorance about Church history. Why would you even want to know whether there's a directive in the Bible that the Word of God is our ultimate authority if you don't believe in Sola Scriptura anyway. Besides, I have already explained to you what we understand by Sola Scriptura. Rather than considering the merit of my argument you took it all down because I happen to be a Protestant believing in Sola Scriptura. Nothing as dangerous as a Protestant quoting Scripture of course.

I did not desire to turn this into a Protestant vs Romanist argument. Your not understanding my earlier arguments would seem to suggest you're ignorant of what the Bible has to say on the nature of the Kingdom of God. Never knew Scripture did not apply to Roman Catholics. Oh well, it's only the revealed Word of God after all.

I'm not going to waste any more of my time with you. You wish to blindly follow the direcives of the Pope, you go ahead. If you can't put up with criticism from a scriptural viewpoint, however, I suggest you stop quoting Scripture and do not defend your own viewpoints based on Scripture. Buy a Latin Vulgate Bible and don't forget to throw away any translations you might have. Back to the good ol' pre-Gutenberg days.

Vale.

More False Assertions

Section one of your response is a non answer to the statement you quote from me. Again, you have drawn conclusions that are not based on fact, nor can be extrapolated from what I said. As a matter of fact, you are entering the realm of dishonesty here. No wonder Kapitein Andre agrees with you. You both are flip sides of the same coin.

Section two is a non sequitor. I do not nullify Scripture when I say that one should use BOTH REASON AND SCRIPTURE. Why is it "either or" with you? That demonstrates an inflexible and irrational approach in your thinking. Again, you are drawing incorrect conclusions. Also, your assertion that we can know about the Trinity only through Scripture while having no Scriptural support for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is false reasoning. You have no substantiation for it. Tell me this: WHERE DID SCRIPTURE COME FROM? And when was it written? If the truth about God can come only from Scripture, then how did the early Christians know anything since THEY HAD NO SCRIPTURE FOR AT LEAST A CENTURY? Do please answer without evasions.

As you indicated in your response to Kapitein Andre, you believe the crusades were an example of a muscular Christianity. It would seem you would like a return to those days when the bishop of Rome was the head of the Western Church and assumed worldly power to fight Muslim infidels.

Again you are drawing conclusions with no basis. I'm beginning to think you are mentally ill.

Technically, you may not be a Muslim. But you certainly "reason" like one. I must find that article I read where someone wrote up an analysis on the similarities between Islamism and Calvinism.

Oh, Capo, what have you done?

You mention Wagner and immediately Pale Rider's essays got even longer, KA and Marcfrans posts got decidedly shorter and to top it all off Kappert served me breakfast this morning dressed up as Wonder Woman. (Not a pretty sight).

Evasion

@pale rider:

I see that you are not going to show me where in Scripture there is the directive for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. That's because THERE IS NONE.

I rest my case.

I asked you to give me

I asked you to give me Biblical proof for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

No, you didn't.

Do show me: Where is the Biblical support for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura? If such a doctrine is correct, should it not be founded in Scripture? Otherwise, HOW CAN A DOCTRINE THAT COMPELS A THEOLOGY THAT IS EXCLUSIVELY SCRIPTURAL HAVE CREDIBILITY IF IT HAS NO SUCH FOUNDATION ITSELF? Do you not see the discrepancy?

See Church History 101. No need to yell, by the way. I'm not deaf. I will be after listening to Wagner for too long though.

This is the problem I see with a lot of you Protestants. You're irrational. Your type of Christianity is very closely aligned with Islamism in its failure to use reason in your theology,

Which explains our opposition to:

- 'Marian' apparitions
- papal infallibility,
- reverence of relics
- adoration of images
- 'holy' water
- transubstantiation

among other things, of course.

By the way, all of the Reformers I have read about were learned men who were true polymaths by our standards. And what was the name of that rational Church that opposed Galileo Galilei again?

intolerant provincialism (such as your dismissal of pagan mythology), and rabid hypersenstivity regarding criticism.

Look who's talking. That's why the Romanists burned us heretics at a stake, for sure, and explains why they dug up John Wycliffe's bones and burned them to throw the ashes into the water. After all, the man had translated the Bible into the language of the common people. The horror, the horror!

How rational and scriptural.

RE: More Irrationalities

Show me where I said that Protestants are not Christians. I never made such a claim.

Your remarks about predestination, perhaps. And your replies in which you debunked what I wrote saying you are opposed to Sola Scriptura and that the Roman church teaches that we arrive at truth through reason and scripture. I sensed a certain ambiguity in your remarks which left me wondering whether you think it is necessary for Roman Catholicism to spread in order for a nation to prosper. I asked you about that but you never answered the question. You also never considered my points in the second part of my earlier response in which I made a reference to the temptation of Jesus by Satan while fasting in the desert. Not familiar with the story or no desire to think about it? I don't know why you even wrote this response because it borders on a personal attack more than anything else.

1. Drawing incorrect and unsubstantiated assertions. Somewhat paranoid and humorless. Check.

Clearly you haven't gotten the slightest gist of my argument that your or the Roman Church's invocation of "reason" is illogical. That said I give up because I'm not going to repeat myself over. Besides, I never meant to attack you being a Roman Catholic. I did not even know you were Roman Catholic until you wrote in a response that your view cannot possibly be heretical since, after all, you're Roman Catholic, and only Protestants would be guilty of proclaiming heresies like the prosperity Gospel... duuuh!

2. Calls that which uses reason "irrational". Does not believe that reason is a necessary component in discerning truth, therefore, God, who is truth, can transcend reason (similar to Muslim belief regarding Allah.) If God can transcend reason, then he can be an unreasonable God. An unreasonable God cannot always be just. But God always is just, therefore, belief in a (possibly) unreasonable God is false theology. Furthermore, God created man in his own image and likeness. One characteristic of man that is unlike that of animals is his possession of reason. [...]

We all are endowed with reason and we can discern. But your claim was that the Trinity can be known through reason, while the doctrine of the Trinity is derived from Scriptures through the gift of discernment and has been defended, taught and preserved in the Church by God's grace. The way you put it nullifies the role of Scripture. Reason in itself, unless guided by the Holy Spirit and based on Scripture, might just as well lead to Unitarianism. Indeed there are many well-written and well-thought out arguments against the Trinity, all quoting Scripture and invoking Reason.

We know only as much about the Trinity as is revealed in Scripture, and nobody truly comprehends the Trinity because it does transcend our human reason. The very reason why God revealed Himself in the flesh and through Scriptures is the fact that we cannot know Him by our own reasoning.

The rise of something does not always mean that it will continue its ascension, or maintain it forever. Britain's loss of empire in the 20th century coincides with the rise of atheism in the West. Indeed, Europe's decline in the 20th century parallels [..]

Still claiming to understand the dynamics of the world, huh? The Spanish Inquisition was instituted by the staunchly Roman Catholic Habsburg rulers in my homeland of Flanders. Your beloved Church, my dear, backed the Inquisition. Perhaps you should be grateful to those Protestant heretics because without them there would never have been such a strong impulse toward limited government and the principle that the ruler himself is subject to God's law and therefore not supreme. The Reformation also lead to the decrease in secular power held by the Roman Church and its clergy, which at various points was more of a tyranny than anything else.

As you indicated in your response to Kapitein Andre, you believe the crusades were an example of a muscular Christianity. It would seem you would like a return to those days when the bishop of Rome was the head of the Western Church and assumed worldly power to fight Muslim infidels. You're entitled to those views, of course, but I for one do not agree with that line of thinking.

The Reformers were all out against Islam and did not oppose the secular powers keeping out Islam. They did not, however, oppose the evangelization of the Muslims and neither did they proclaim it to be the mission of the Church to forcibly convert and subject Muslims to Papist rule or otherwise annihilate them. The Christian's true Sword is the Word of God. The idea of a Christian "Holy War" and forgiveness of sin by participation in such a war, is absurd.

Also, I am not a Mohammedan, thank you very much. I do, however, submit myself to the sovereign God who is my Sustainer and my ultimate Authority in life.

A Challenge

I'm sorry but I cannot agree with what you said on the Sola Scriptura debate. Atheling claims her views are supported by Scripture and history. When I argued her view is biblically unsound, she dismissed my entire argument claiming it testifies of a belief in Sola Sciptura and used her being Roman Catholic as an excuse for not offering any serious reply. She's the one who turned it into a Protestant vs Catholic argument, not me.

I asked you to give me Biblical proof for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. You ignored my request and started your tirades.

Do show me: Where is the Biblical support for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura? If such a doctrine is correct, should it not be founded in Scripture? Otherwise, HOW CAN A DOCTRINE THAT COMPELS A THEOLOGY THAT IS EXCLUSIVELY SCRIPTURAL HAVE CREDIBILITY IF IT HAS NO SUCH FOUNDATION ITSELF? Do you not see the discrepancy?

This is the problem I see with a lot of you Protestants. You're irrational. Your type of Christianity is very closely aligned with Islamism in its failure to use reason in your theology, intolerant provincialism (such as your dismissal of pagan mythology), and rabid hypersenstivity regarding criticism.

More Irrationalities

Oh, so Protestants are Christians after all? Perhaps you should learn to argue with fact and scripture instead of attacking my views as Protestant only to then claim you consider Protestants to be Christians as well.

Show me where I said that Protestants are not Christians. I never made such a claim.

1. Drawing incorrect and unsubstantiated assertions. Somewhat paranoid and humorless. Check.

What you essentially are saying is that we can comprehend God and His divine and mysterious nature thanks to the reason of us fallible and sinful human beings. You are so blinded by belief in extrabiblical revelation that you ascribe the doctrine of the Trinity to human reason instead of what has been revealed to us in Scripture through the Spirit. That is what I call irrational.

2. Calls that which uses reason "irrational". Does not believe that reason is a necessary component in discerning truth, therefore, God, who is truth, can transcend reason (similar to Muslim belief regarding Allah.) If God can transcend reason, then he can be an unreasonable God. An unreasonable God cannot always be just. But God always is just, therefore, belief in a (possibly) unreasonable God is false theology. Furthermore, God created man in his own image and likeness. One characteristic of man that is unlike that of animals is his possession of reason. Therefore, reason is a faculty which gives man his "image and likeness" to God. Also, sinfulness and fallibility does not mean that one cannot arrive at truth. If truth comes from God, then he can reveal it to anyone, including sinners. (BTW, Saul of Tarsus was a "fallible and sinful human being", yet he managed to have the "scales" fall from his eyes - for someone who adheres to Sola Scriptura, you sure seem ignorant of a lot of what is written there.) Faulty epistemology. Check.

However, the fact that Britain was Christian does not at all convince me that nations adopting Christianity will inevitably become prosperous and mighty nations. Britain fell and so did the Spanish Inquisiteurs due to their flawed monetary policies, while remaining as Roman Catholic as ever. Then again, what's the use in arguing with someone who so passionately believes in her own delusions being scriptural and claims that China's rise is attributable to a rise in Christians!

3. The rise of something does not always mean that it will continue its ascension, or maintain it forever. Britain's loss of empire in the 20th century coincides with the rise of atheism in the West. Indeed, Europe's decline in the 20th century parallels a rise in atheistic socialism. Also, you mixed apples and oranges by invoking "nations" and using the "Spanish Inquisitors" as an example for your argument. Non sequitor. Check.

I don't have the desire to quote all the other illogical statements made by this person, but the one about my disbelief of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura means that I am not permitted to quote Scripture exemplifies another illogical syllogism. Contra Sola Scriptura does not equal Non Scriptura. More faulty reasoning.

Your thinking, pale rider, is fraught with illogical conclusions, non sequitors, and paranoid assertions.

You sure you're not a Muslim?

@ Capo

will you be trying out for Parsiful?

Do you realize you're encouraging me to be even more Wagnerian? ;)

I'm sorry but I cannot agree with what you said on the Sola Scriptura debate. Atheling claims her views are supported by Scripture and history. When I argued her view is biblically unsound, she dismissed my entire argument claiming it testifies of a belief in Sola Sciptura and used her being Roman Catholic as an excuse for not offering any serious reply. She's the one who turned it into a Protestant vs Catholic argument, not me.

Of course, if she won't argue and just blindly follow her feelings and the infallible Pope, that's fine with me. But I won't let her point of view go unquestioned just because she doesn't believe in Sola Scriptura. If I did, I would be no different from the political correctness crowd.

However, I do promise never to waste my time on people who base their arguments on their gut feelings again.

Best regards.

What was that you said sonny?

Pale Rider, I chose to address you as a Wagnerian commentator for a reason. TOOO LONG, your posts are too bloody long. I appreciate your thinking and ability to write in a second language. Bravo.

But you treat a debate as an opportunity to launch into a monologue rather than a dialogue. Furthermore, Atheling was right you did start taking her arguments to places where she did not necessarily have to go. Her 'Sola Scriptura' became YOUR take on Sola Scriptura. You didn't ask questions to draw her thoughts out, you went on and on about what she must have meant.

Maybe I am getting a little senile, or drifting into dementia. I know I feel a lot older after I finnish one of your posts. And frankly you seem to get lost a little in your own words, or maybe it's just that Wagnarian thing you do.

For example, did I say you were a teen or juvenile? No, I said your performance was one for such an audience. You characterizations of the typical European youth attitude towards America suggest that under different circumstances, i.e. when you weren't sticking your tongue out at me, you might better appreciate my take on your performance.

Well, I'm getting tired. Time for another nap. But just one question: will you be trying out for Parsiful?
 

K.A. is a formidable foe, I've heard his version of a Greater West Germania is the talk of the Rhine, well I think I heard that, this Wagnarian festival the local radio station has playing for weeks is frying my brain.
 

Kappert can I borrow your Deep Purple CD?

Anti-American?

Of course his anti-American leitmotif was a performance for the ages, i.e. teen, juvenile.

Capodistrias, are you that old that you are suffering from such severe amnesia already?

Although I admit I am a young man, I am not a teenager. What does age mean these days anyway, when I know plenty of 40 and 50 somethings who are as grown-up as a 14 year old teenage girl.

I describe myself in my bio saying I'm "pro-American". What juvenile Western European 'teen' would describe himself openly as being highly respectful of the United States and of the typically Anglo-Saxon principles of limited government and individualism from which the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights were ultimately derived?

Moreover, if you have ever read any of my earlier posts, which I am sure you have, then you should know that I am anything but anti-American. My criticism was not against the Constitution or even the Founding Fathers themselves, but at the popular U.S. Conservative notion that the Founders and America and even its very constitution were somehow Biblical and über-Christian. So 'Christian' even that they they seem to equate support of the U.S. Constitution and incompetent GOP fools and neocons supporting big government, to preaching the Gospel.

They tend to interpret the Bible through Jeffersonian glasses and forget that the Gospel message is not about temporal governments of man, individual wealth or 'social justice'. I am willing to admit this is a broad brush but I do have encountered this attitude very frequently in exchanges with America's Christian Right. I am very critical of this attitude of theirs because I believe it is erroneous.

By the way, I hate a lot of popular mainstream American culture just as much as a lot of U.S. Conservatives do. Does that still make me anti-American? Perhaps my disgust at much of modern American culture is due to my love for much of what America produced in the past.

So how you can equate my criticisms of, in this particular topic, popular mainstream U.S. Conservative dogmas to all-out anti-Americanism, I don't know. I find it very narrow-minded of yours to call me anti-American and that you'd dismiss what I say as such due to the fact that I am probably a heck of lot younger than you are (given your amnesia).

I am not dismissing U.S. Conservatism in general, and I do not oppose the U.S. Constitution. I am one of the few people who will defend American conservatives in this country, and one of the few friends the U.S. has left in this part of Europe. So quite frankly I take offense at your thoughtless and juvenile remark.

Whither the Valkyrie Atheling?

Has Pale Rider's Wagnarian posts  'killed the wabbit'?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051189/plotsummary

Atheling, even though others have now joined Pale Rider on stage I was hoping you wouldn't let Pale Rider off so easily. Not only did he upstage your reference to Sola Scriptura, he then sang an entire duet on it, by himself! Impressive. 

Of course his anti-American leitmotif was a performance for the ages, i.e. teen, juvenile.

"At the risk of being accused of anti-Americanism, I have to say that your view is stereotypically American and strikes me as very irrational as well."

Classic. And he was just warming up.

I'm afraid most Americans on the TBJ fell asleep after Pale Rider's first or second post. Pity, because while America has slept it appears that another Götterdämmerung is about to spring forth out of the Rhine.

Will the Anglo-Saxons-Jutes be included in Greater West Germania? Will the Boys from Brazil and Argentina be included? Will they be able to recapture the glory of their past performances? Will? Will! Will! Isn't Wagner Vonderfull!

Restoration No. 3

RE:
 
1.  As Ayn Rand noted, groups do not make decisions, individuals within them do.  Such a re-partitioning will be impossible without a major upheaval.  I can't imagine a single instance of an advancement or reform that occurred in the absence of a crisis.  I wouldn't venture further than a loose confederation along Swiss (or formerly Swiss) lines, although the deconstruction of nationality in Europe should mitigate resistance to the emergence of new polities.
 
2.  I meant "fools" in a very contemporary sense.  The French cultural production is almost without equal, especially in terms of art, cuisine and learning.  The Italians are the descendants of the Romans, however, there is no Italian nation as such, given the regional antagonisms and sharp differences that persisted despite the Risorgimento.
 
3.  In terms of my being "racist" insofar as being prejudiced against an individual or group purely based on physical characteristics, this is clearly wrong.

Restoration # 2

@ Kapitein Andre

1) It is a happy occurrence to find something to agree on, i.e. the desirability of a restoration of the 'Greater-Netherlands' or the 'Low Countries' or the 'Seventeen Provinces', although you would want to see that confederation extended to all "West-Germanic" peoples (which is even more utopic).   If Mr Vanderheyden were to respond to your questions, I suspect or predict that it will become clearer to you why I consider the whole subject utopic, and those reasons are essentialy rooted in postmodernism. 

2) We also seem to agree on French "ambitions", and I grant you that the French (on the whole, there are many individual exceptions)  have few 'equals' in the world in terms of cultural (and political) arrogance.  But, I would not go as far as calling them (and the Italians and Walloons) "fools" in the way that you have described them.  On the contrary, I think that they have made extremely valuable contributions to Western civilisation.   French outsized ambitions are as much the product of the 'foolishnes' of others, than of the 'arrogance' of the French.   The desirability of cultural self-determination and of self-government is a 'public good' in itself, and it does not require the denigration of others.  It is part and parcel of the moral imperative of self-responsibility for all individuals as well as 'peoples' (in a civic/cultural sense).  

3) I do not wish to take up the issue of 'racism' any further now, because your last posting raises far to many extraneous issues.  I do accept your correction about the term "gene pool", which I used as a shorthand for 'physical looks' and did not intend to use in a scientific sense.  Hence, I should have employed single quotation marks to indicate unusual or loose usage.    
  

To Marc Frans RE: "Racism"

I never discount the impact of experience and influence on patterns of behavior and values, however, attempts at social engineering have failed miserably, and psychological research has proven that "nature" trumps "nurture".  European or Western values have not expanded far beyond ethnic Europeans and their descendants.  East Asian societies have never adopted Western values beyond those necessary to compete economically and/or militarily with Western powers.  Central and Eastern Europeans have been far more receptive to Western values, and this after decades of Marxist-Leninist rule, than the vast majority of non-European migrants to Europe, North America, Australasia, etc.
 
Emphasizing genetics here has nothing at all to do with the United States, which has not overcome the problem I noted above.  Moreover, a country comprised of peoples of pure or mixed Celtic, Germanic, Mediterraneans and Slavic ancestry, does not have a common gene pool.  Europe features ample diversity, and yet harmony also.  It is one thing for Western countries to accept non-European migrants as charity, it is quite another to pretend as though these add value, and then encourage it.  They don't.

To Marc Frans RE: "Restoration"

Thank you for clarifying Mr Vanderheyden’s nationality.  I never read him discussing his own nationality, but I should have been able to deduce from his surname, the greater probability of his being Flemish rather than Dutch.
 
I fully agree with your opinions on Dutch-Flemish (re)unification.  Indeed, I feel a re-partitioning of Western Europe is in order, mainly with respect to the West Germanic peoples.  By West Germanic, I refer to those peoples speaking West Germanic languages, a region that roughly extends from the Manx Sea to the Oder and Neisse Rivers and from Sylt Island to Lake Maggiore.  Most European borders are reflective of past confessional and political divisions, and the private good of aristocrats, monarchs, emperors, prince-bishops and popes.  However, I have long felt that the West Germanic peoples on the continent have been deliberately constrained by foreign powers, and this despite the fact that these peoples – whether the Austrians, Dutch, English or Germans – have led Western Europe for centuries.
 
French ambitions have not been dashed by centuries of defeats and economic and military mediocrity.  That the Germans were forced to cede ethnically German territories to France, economic independence to the EU, and underwrite the EU while France controls it is intolerable; equally so with the Flemings, who are forced to underwrite the Walloons.
 
What is needed is a confederation that includes all of the West Germanic peoples, protects their ethnic diversity* and languages, marshals their economic power, and extricates them from the company of fools e.g. the French, Italians and Walloons.  By “fools”, I mean in the sense of a total lack of efficiency, industry and organization.
 

*The West Germanic peoples are not ethnically homogenous or identical to the North Germanic peoples or Scandinavians.  They can be roughly divided between those that are mainly Celtic-Germanic (e.g. the Dutch, English, Flemings, Frisians, Luxembourgers, West Germans, etc.), and those that are mainly Alpine-Germanic (e.g. Austrians, South Germans, Swiss Germans, etc.).  In the northern regions of Germany, many Germans tend to be identical to the Scandinavians, and many East Germans are in fact Germanized Western Slavs. 

Response

@ KA

Peter Vanderheyden is definitely a Flemish Belgian, a fact of which he does not make a secret and that is readily 'recognisable' to any real Belgian regular reader of TBJ comments sections.  Although he is not a "resident of the Netherlands", I wish he were, for I am in favor of the restoration of a confederation of the Northern and Southern 'nether-lands' within Europe.  That goal seems rather utopian under current (political and cultural) circumstances and, if it could ever come about, it will likely happen by way of (or through)  major 'disturbing' geopolitical developments. 
 

@ pvdh

As you know,  "racism" - in the sense of 'making value judgments about specific individuals on the basis of purely physical differences -  is anathema to me.  I see no evidence of Fjordman engaging in "blatant racist crap".  As the Kapitein put it, Fjordman is "definitely Eurocentric and anti-Islamic", but (as I will put it) these terms "Euro" and "Islamic" refer to cultural/civilisational differences not to racial differences.  They reflect distinct behavior patterns and values that are the  products of distinct historical and geographic factors of 'experience' and tradition, not of innate racial differences.  Fjordman expresses strong views and they are certainly uncommon in the European media landscape, but they do not deserve to be mischaracterised by the contemporary all-purpose label of  'racist'.

By contrast, the Kapitein frequently casts his views in terms of "white" and "nonwhite", a practice for which he was in the past criticised by Atheling and myself, as was 'Armor' (remember him?). I believe that KA's 'racism' is partly rooted in his need to believe that the American 'experiment' (of a succesful Republic based on a common civic culture, rather than on a common gene pool) has failed.  But, that opinion of mine is neither here nor there, i.e. it is not important in this context.  The point is that you are directing your charge at the 'wrong' target. 

If you could briefly ignore or overlook his obsession  with 'whiteness', it might still be worthwhile to address some of the kapitein's pointed questions.  But do ignore the last one, because it was based on the mistaken assumption that you are a 'protestant Northerner'.  And, despite your anti-religion stance, we both know (at least I hope you do too) that you are much more a 'catholic' than a 'protestant'.  It has nothing to do with skin color, but everything to do with 'history'.        
  

@PR and PVDH

pale rider,
 
Full agreement on atheling.  Your extensive contributions on Western civilization are debatable, but appreciated. 
 
Peter,
 
I dislike the term "racist", so I don't use it normally.  Fjordman is definitely Euro-centric and anti-Islamic.  Ethno-centrism and indeed supremacism is tolerated throughout the non-Western world, and Western social engineering to the contrary has not produced any benefits as individual and group competition continues unabated as it has since time immemorial.  Fjordman's focus on Muslims and Africans is due to the unprecedented patterns of migration to Europe since 1945, which on their current trajectories, will define European life for the 21st Century.
 
I assume that you are Dutch and a resident of the Netherlands.  Would you accept a majority non-White Netherlands?  One that no longer speaks Dutch?  One that has a non-Christian religion as an official religion?  One that is renamed in another language?  Did you agree with your ancestors fighting a brutal and protracted struggle for independence from Spain and Spanish Catholicism?
 
Fjordman has laid forth his views.  It is time for you to do the same, rather than force other commentators to determine them based on your objections.

Doesn’t this bother you?

It is time to get this from my chest. I’ve read a lot at the Brussels Journal over the years. A lot of it, I didn’t agree with. But mostly it was debatable. It often had some truth in it; was well thought of. But the most filthy and blatant racist crap I’ve ever read was also at the BJ and of the hand of Fjordman. And I honestly want to know from some valued contributors to the BJ as Marcfrans and the kapitein: Doesn’t this bother you?  
 

different Chhristianities

"Christianity, which taught people that God had created the universe according rational laws which could to some extent be discovered and described by humans."
 
We must have studied different Chhristianities...

RE: pride & irrationality

By the way, I am not impressed by your posting of a quote about irrationality and pride in response to what I wrote. Especially when you do not understand half of what I am saying while not being able to provide any serious counter arguments other than more gut feelings, emotions, anti-Protestant sentiments and off-topic diversions about how pagan myths foreshadow Christ. It's a cheap trick and tells me a lot about your own disposition with regard to pride and irrationality.

@ Atheling

Oh, so Protestants are Christians after all? Perhaps you should learn to argue with fact and scripture instead of attacking my views as Protestant only to then claim you consider Protestants to be Christians as well.

If I had known I would have referred to the Han Dynasty in China instead of the British Empire. However, the fact that Britain was Christian does not at all convince me that nations adopting Christianity will inevitably become prosperous and mighty nations. Britain fell and so did the Spanish Inquisiteurs due to their flawed monetary policies, while remaining as Roman Catholic as ever. Then again, what's the use in arguing with someone who so passionately believes in her own delusions being scriptural and claims that China's rise is attributable to a rise in Christians! It seems whatever historical cases and examples from Scripture I present to you will not convince you that your view is biblically unsound. And at the end of the day I am only one of those excommunicated heretics anyway.

You talk about the Trinity being a doctrine we have established based on reason when it is derived entirely from Scripture. What you essentially are saying is that we can comprehend God and His divine and mysterious nature thanks to the reason of us fallible and sinful human beings. You are so blinded by belief in extrabiblical revelation that you ascribe the doctrine of the Trinity to human reason instead of what has been revealed to us in Scripture through the Spirit. That is what I call irrational.

You more or less implied in an earlier message that I were a Deist. I wrote that my worldview is Augustinian only to clarify that I am not in any way a Deist. If you think the Biblical concept of election is heretical (I'm not even talking of the Calvinist doctrine on election here) then feel free to write your own Bible like Jefferson (who was a Deist) did. Be sure to throw out the letters of St Paul to the Ephesians and Romans and the letters of St Peter, among others. But that is not what the topic was about anyway.

Talking of Deists, most prominent Founding Fathers were Deists, Freemasons, heretical 'heretics' (e.g. Universalists) and your average Protestant 'heretic' (e.g. Episcopalians, Presbyterians). Thomas Paine was not a Christian at all. Along with Jefferson and others, he passionately defended the radical French revolution. The U.S. did not become a major world power until during the early 20th century. So much for that popular U.S. 'conservative' bogus about "Christian system".

Is the U.S. Constitution a God-given recipe for success? Apparently it is according to a lot of conservatives in the U.S. So I have to wonder why these American Chrstians do not include it among the apocrypha in their Bible instead of reducing the Gospel to support a temporal product (albeit a fine one) of fallible men.

How about accepting what the Bible does have to say instead of twisting Scripture to support your own fanciful interpretation of history, even as you think Scripture is insufficient and is not the final authority for a Christian. And if your view is not official Roman Catholic teaching then you better be careful in proclaiming your unorthodox views.

As for your comment on my English, I should be asking you whether you can even read at all. Have you ever bothered checking my bio? I might as well remove it altogether. On a positive note, your sarcastic question seems to imply that you took me for a native English speaker. For that, I truly am grateful.

A Flemish-American Interlude

St. Damien of Molokai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_Damien
In a Flemish-American contretemps.

On Irrationality and Pride

"Pride consists in a man making his personality the only test, instead of making truth the test. The sceptic feels himself too large to measure life by the largest things; and ends by measuring it by the smallest thing of all." - G.K. Chesterton

More Inconsistencies

Second, there are hundreds of examples of prosperous and mighty nations that existed after Christ, many of which were not Christian. I do not know if in your view a nation must adopt Roman Catholicism to prosper, but the British Empire happened to be non-Catholic.
Do you see the non sequitor of what you say here? You claim that many "prosperous nations existed that were not Christian", then use the BRITISH EMPIRE as an example because they were not Catholic. You have made a logical fallacy there. The British Empire WAS CHRISTIAN.
I can see that this is a fruitless conversation, as you seem unable to use any logical consistency in your statements.
Adios.

@pale rider

I won't continue this conversation as your comments make little sense to me and you are putting words into my mouth. You have taken what I have said out of context, created strawmen, and made some rather wild accusations. Accusing me of some kind of hubristic "understanding the very nature of God" when I used the example of the Trinity to prove that Scripture does not explicitly speak of the Trinity, yet many of those who invoke Sola Scriptura believe in the Trinity doctrine is a complete misunderstanding of my meaning. Talk about misconstruing! Is English your first language?

@ Atheling [2]

But back on topic:

First, no such concept as a correlation between national prosperity and the adoption of Christianity is found in Scripture. Satan still has free reign in this world even as Christ reigns over His people as King from heaven. Remember what Satan promised to give Christ during his 40 day fast in the desert? I wouldn't be surprised if the house of Habsburg was among the human kingdoms he offered (but yes, I admit that's not in Scripture).

Second, there are hundreds of examples of prosperous and mighty nations that existed after Christ, many of which were not Christian. I do not know if in your view a nation must adopt Roman Catholicism to prosper, but the British Empire happened to be non-Catholic. God can surely use both officially 'Christian' nations and non-Christian nations to support His own divine plan. That is why some 'Christian' nations became very powerful, while other 'Christian' nations were subjected to Islam, or never became very prosperous at all, while He allowed certain pagan nations to become powerful and prosperous.

Third, since you do not believe in sola scriptura, I must admit I have never heard of any such concept as you believe in being officially taught by the Roman Catholic Church. And I do take my information about Catholic doctrine from Roman Catholic sources also. So if this view of yours is somehow an official Roman Catholic position, which I doubt, then please provide me some links to papal bulls as proof. Then at least I will be able to examine exactly what the RCC teaches on this issue, even if I will not be able to convince you otherwise given the infallibility of the Pope on doctrinal matters (according to the RCC).

Fourth, personal 'foreknowledge' based on human reason is not foreknowledge. What you are talking about is conjecture. Only God has the ability to foresee the future. Anything God wished to share with mankind about the future is revealed to us in Scripture. Proverbs 3:5 - 'Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.'

As for myths foreshadowing Christ, that is all very interesting but what is written about Christ in Scripture suffices for me. There we have the real story. And as I said before, I am not getting into this. The topic might be relevant to you but it adds nothing to this topic.

@ Atheling [1]

At the risk of being accused of anti-Americanism, I have to say that your view is stereotypically American and strikes me as very irrational as well. There is not even such thing as God-given unalienable rights in the Bible to begin with. The Founding Fathers were not the first to support limited government. Other nations or empires prospered in their own historical and religious contexts, without being Roman Catholic or even without being Christian. When Christ was born, the Roman Empire was all-powerful, omniscient, and persecuted Christians for centuries. Why did Rome fall not too long after it adopted Christianity as the official State religion? God evidently had other plans. Also, last time I checked, this world was still in a sinful state. The United States was founded as a nation without official religion, and history shows that even if a nation officially adopts Christianity as its religion, this does not lead to some kind of utopia in which everyone lives freely, happily and under limited government. Far from it, in fact, as the corruptions of the Church (for instance) during the Middle Ages show.

As for the Trinity, do you seriously claim to understand the very nature of God? If so, do you realize what you are saying? No man has ever seen God but through the Word Incarnate, so how could you or anyone of us possibly comprehend Him? I believe in the Trinity because it is what I and many others infer from Scriptures regarding the nature of God. So did the Church Fathers, who did not yet have 'Holy Tradition' to tell them. It takes genuine God-given faith to accept the mystery of the Trinity, because the concept in its entirety is incomprehensible to us. Even if it seems reasonable to us now, may I remind you of the fact that the Trinity was one of the most controversial issues in early Church history, dividing the Body of believers for centuries? Islam was and remains an all out attack against the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Islam's rejection of the Trinity seems perfectly reasonable and logical to a Muslim. Just check the endless number of websites and documents that debate the Trinity. Ultimately it comes down to what we choose to believe - that the Bible is the Word of God and contains the truth or not. If we knew the Trinity by our own reasoning, then man would not even need Scripture as he would be his own source of truth.

To counter what I said with the fact that you do not believe in Sola Scriptura is really a non-argument. You believe in Holy Tradition or the authority of the Church, well, so do I. Sola Scriptura does not imply that all tradition is wrong, and neither does it mean the Church has no authority. The Reformers did not want to abolish the Church. Unfortunately they were excommunicated, giving rise to various sects. Sola Sciptura holds that the ultimate source of truth and infallible authority is the Word of God. Hence, any forced practices and traditions of men or dogma in the Church that are not scriptural or diminish Scipture, are to be rejected.

Ironically, you apply Scripture (i.e. your interpretation of 'be fruitful and multiply') in a way that reminds me of a lot of Evangelicals who do invoke Sola Scriptura in an attempt at 'proving' their latest fanciful doctrines and conjecture about the fulfillment of the book of Revelation, among other things, as if everyone's individual interpretation was equally valid. To me that is a perversion of Sola Sciptura. Like those 'Protestants', perhaps you should try to read Scripture in its context. The quotes seem to suggest that you pick whatever you want to support a view that to my knowledge is considered heterodox by virtually all denominations, and then invoke your opposition to Sola Scriptura when this view is questioned on scriptural grounds. Don't you see the flaw in your thinking?

One More Point...

It's clear that Christianity in Europe is dying.  It is also in decline in America (though I fervently hope and pray that there is a renaissance in my own country).  Would God allow his visible kingdom on earth to wither away?  Would he permit the Gospel to fade into obscurity?
Soon after Benedict's ascendency to the papacy, I read an interesting article that the Holy See is "preparing" for a "contraction" of the faith in Europe (the west), and a "renewal" in the east.
I find another metaphor there:  the faith, like the sun, sets in the west, but rises in the east at a new dawn.
Can't help but see that sometimes there is more truth in poesy than in science! :)