@olog-hai

Please forget your ideological "real conservative"-nonsense: come and live in my street in Flanders, or some other part of europe, in a street with roma's. I know many people who altered their opinion in just a few minutes.

So . . . Hungary's a "safe" country for gypsies? The same country where the Jobbik wields considerable influence among the people and police unions, if not the government itself?

I've heard no mention of Italy's anti-Roma legislation. Would you like it if you were part of a minority that were subject to mandatory fingerprinting?

Looks like conservatives have abandoned the Brussels Journal, with all due respect. Such viewpoints hand the argument to the liberals and undermine conservatism.

Individuals and groups, including nations, rise and fall.  We all know instances of businesses that emerge competitive and dynamic, and mature to be uncompetitive and maladaptive, struggling to keep market share much less aggressive expand as before; and so too have polities behaved.

Until relatively recently, there were no “brain drains” via emigration; rather, the most capable merely labored within the constraints imposed on them by their community.  Historically, European Jewry was in no position to promote individual success.  Young Jews with great potential experienced the same encouragement and discouragement from their family and peers, but had to suffer the additional burden of discrimination and oppression from Christian societies.  However, the Jewish emphasis on education and ethnic nepotism – itself a consequence of marginalization and segregation – created a nurturing environment that survived pogroms, etc. 

Of course, one might argue conversely that Jewish success across so many indices is in their blood.  Jews are, after all, descended from the Phoenicians that established a trading empire in the Mediterranean and colonies from Cyprus to the Iberian coast.  The history of Rothenberg is instructive in this regard, as Jewish communities kept appearing in this town after successive pogroms, due to its strategic location on the intersection of important German trade routes.  Despite the hazards, Jewish merchants traversed Europe and Asia, expanding commerce e.g. the Silk Road.  As with the British, Dutch and Germans in South Africa, the Jews have adapted to and thrived everywhere.  Have the Roma or the Africans?  Absolutely not. 

And yes, the Jews have hammered down nails that stuck out: ask any Christian ;)

Regarding the Jews.

If you look back at history, then you will realize that successful talents are concentrated in space and time. Some examples: Ancient Greeks, Dutch painters, Italian Renaissance artists, German/Austrian composers, Italian opera composers, etc. This clustering tells me that there is an inordinate amount of talent everywhere but ... we waste it. I can safely state that humanity loses 99.9*% of talents. It also tells me, that helping "developing" (read third world) countries with money is a waste. They live in such a state because there is something wrong with their culture.

A question. Why successful talents are clustered?

1. In some cases, because they are a few people who can spot talents and know how to bring it to surface. One incredible example is Szechy Tamas who raised a long line of very successful Hungarian (Hello Mr. Handlery) swimmers.

2. They are *ALLOWED* to rise above the rest. If this doesn't happen, then the society will stagnate and drive away its smartest people. Such a society deserves its fate.

3. What happens, and this brings me back to the Jews, when there is a minority which is far more successful in locating, raising, and letting go talents, then the host country? I believe this is one of the present reasons of the growing Jew hatred in Europe. The Jews are more successful than the rest. Not because they conspire, not because they steal, but ... maybe because their culture doesn't treat successful people as nails sticking out whom need to be hammered back?

Vilmos

RE:

1.  I recall being disgusted by the pressure from Prague to lift the Canadian visa requirements, as the Czech government was cynically passing its Roma problem to Canada by encouraging Roma “refugees” to emigrate, even leveraging its EU membership to “bleed off” its undesirables. 

2.  Indeed, there is no comparison between the Roma and Jewry, unless one is driving home the almost universal intolerance to stateless peoples.  Interestingly, after Lechfeld, the Magyars settled, intermixed with the Slavic and Avar population base, and established a nation state in Pannonia.  Perhaps the Roma should have done likewise…

3.  Prosecuting Islamist paramilitary members who have actively committed acts of aggression is incredibly wrong.  I recall that the incarceration and trial of Saddam Hussein was fraught with criticism from various jurists and quasi–jurists, which invariably ended after his execution.  Unless Obama is aiming for a Stalin–esque show trial, his ratings will be better for it if he just signs their death warrants and is done with it.  None of these captured irregulars can be rehabilitated or repatriated.  Al–Qaeda is transnational and the Pashto have no state.  The Romanian insiders were onto something when Ceausescu and his wife were unceremoniously gunned down; aside from scant conspiracy theories that they are still among the living, who is decrying their brief “trial”?

4.  Agreed.

5.  For centuries, treason was treated in a uniform manner.  Would–be traitors such as Guy Fawkes understood the consequences of treason.  It is time that “homegrown” Islamists suffer the martyrdom they are so eager for.

The gypsies are indeed a huge problem, I know, they live in my street with 10 children in one house, or what used to be 'my' street: the pollution, noise, and deterioration is just unimaginable. And I consider myself lucky because they seem to be the so-called middle-class of roma's so the light version of Roma lifestyle: they have cars and wear quite modern clothes (at least the men & children, not the women). I don't know where they come from, how they came here, and what our 'leaders' (european and national) are planing to do with them but it's just madness. EU says that gypsies are 'a special concern' for them but that only means that they are handing out money & and houses. Houses with are basicly destroyed within one month: the family next to me throws teabags and diapers on the roof, to give a little example.... Little children (3-6 years) walk over the streets like there is no traffic, it's just insane. It's a problem without solution: people with a parasite sociopathic lifestyle that just don't want to improve their lifes. The only thing you can do is get them out of your countries and your historical territories. It's the problem of some eastern european countries, let them deal with it, or send them back to Rajasthan, they will quite easely fit in there.

1. My own view is that the Gypsies live in their own world. If they want an end to the prejudices against their people, let them begin by reforming themselves. Either they submit to the laws of their "guest" countries if they wish to preserve their identity and traditions within the legal boundaries as determined by local law, or they give up entirely on their backward and insupportable nomadic way of life and settle down like civilized Western people, ensuring that their children receive a good education and integrate themselves into society.

Of course there will always be people who hate the Gypsies due to their Asiatic racial background. The same argument was used to justify hatred against the Magyar in the past as well, regardless of the fact that the Magyar have lived in Europe since the 9th century A.D. and were christened before the Poles and Lithuanians were.

Although race and ethnic realities ought not be denied, I believe Conservatives should not base their view of others on racial grounds but on the willingness of minorities to assimilate, to pay respect to their guest countries, and to defend their new homeland against hostile nations.

The latter, I believe, is the ultimate test of true integration. Any minorities that have their reservations or are opposed to the idea of defending (note that I'm not arguing against conscientious objectors here, I am talking about a "just" war situation) their new country have no business living there and should return to where they came from.

In the case of the Gypsies, however, the problem is that it is impossible to say where they ought to live then. The Jewish people have a clear and well-documented historical connection to Palestine, as well as a religious connection with the Holy Land. But to my knowledge - which, I admit, is limited on this particular subject - nothing comparable exists with the Gypsies.

2. Good point. Unlike many other minorities, the Jewish people - at least religious ones - believe it to be their duty from the Torah to respect their Gentile homeland, and not to wage war against or destroy their Gentile compatriots.

4. Tolerance - like liberty - without any moral boundaries, fuelled by moral relativism, equals licentiousness and anarchy. This modern and twisted notion of "tolerance" cannot be tolerated by civilized men and women who are devoted to the endurance of individual liberty and civil order for the sake of their country's, their families', and - ultimately - their own well-being.