Apples and Oranges? I beg to differ. American identity is a mixed bag of being part of America and yet holding on to cultural heritage. One can be American but always speak with pride about being half Irish, half Polish, and half Italian. That makes 150% which makes no sense to me but it makes sense to them. This is a source of amusement to Europeans and to myself. Europeans, I find in general, do not share what their heritage is, rather, they say they are French/Italian etc... (I'm not talking about the immigrants here btw). As for PC, well, we'll just agree to disagree. ^_^

@ Atheling and dosser
You are not talking about the same thing.  There is little or no doubt that American identity is more strongly felt by Americans than 'European' identity is felt by Europeans.  But comparing American national identity with the national identity of Frenchmen, Spanjards, Brits, Italians, etc...is mixing up apples with oranges.    
On the question of PC, I think Atheling is right.  PC is essentially a phenomenon of the cultural-left, and the latter is much stronger in Western Europe than in America (despite American academia and electoral cyclical movements).  

I think that Americans ARE proud of their national identity. I just don't think it's as deep as Europeans. Things may have changed now but back then I was in a conference where Europeans were posed the question of being European or German/French/Swiss etc... They were even surprised that they didn't want to be considered anything else but German/French/Swiss etc... It may have a lot to do with an older culture with longer history/traditions. Americans always seem to beat themselves up for their past - slavery, the Indians, etc... while I don't see the same level of self-chastisement on the European side.

Funny, that you think Americans are not proud of their national identity... I thought that that's what the Europeans like to sneer at: our flag waving, "God Bless America" saying, etc...

I live in the Pacific Northwest, outside of a major city. Here, you will see American flags flying outside of people's homes, bumperstickers which say "God Bless America", and other indicators of national pride. I've lived in Texas, Pennsylvania, California, New Jersey and now Washington. I've seen these sentiments wherever I live. I guess you must move in different circles...

Chicago, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis. Currently Chicago. Where do you think America is not so PC? Also lived in Toronto, Canada. In Europe I lived in London, Paris, and Carlisle. My observations are limited to my experiences and, therefore, subjective. I've met people from both sides of the Atlantic who harbor feelings against another people/race etc.. but on this side of the Atlantic (the US) they are much more fearful of reprisals for expressing these views.

Here is a new article on this very issue, unbeleiveably it is a Reuters article (from Yahoo News): 
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061127/lf_nm/france_police_dc

@dosser:

"Europe is not as PC as America. The indigenous population seem to have more of a sense of pride and identity in their nationality than Americans which will result in more and more people wanting to be protective of their culture and nationality."

Are you joking? Where in America did you live for seven years? San Francisco?

I do believe that when push comes to shove that Europe will be more willing to take measures America would not. Europe is not as PC as America. The indigenous population seem to have more of a sense of pride and identity in their nationality than Americans which will result in more and more people wanting to be protective of their culture and nationality. I wouldn't call it hatred like Peters but more a sense of calling it as one sees it without any political correctness. The Europeans need to be more proactive about this, or they will be pushed into being proactive. This is just an observation after having lived 7 yrs in Europe and 7 yrs in the US. I guess I just wish the US wasn't so scared of being PC.

Don't sent them here!...This country has enough illegal immigration problems!!!!.....Just put that notion out of your head right now, there, Ralph!!!!.

Peters has been read too much as his article is senseless drivel that deserves no comment.  Baudelaire articulately disposes of it.  I provide another Churchill quote thanks to another poster, atheling, as it is taken from his site:
 
 "“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed;if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly;you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case.You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”-Sir Winston Churchill
 
While this may be overly dramatic for the situation described in France, it is appropriate for a reminder of where ignoring problems or appeasing them can lead.  As indicated by Armor, we have a problem that we need to do something about and that problem is leftists who appease muslims and everything else multicultural and US, who appease the leftists.
 
As for Peter V's question, "what zone", it is the 751 zone(s) designated by the authorities, not the zones drawn by the people.  The fancy car you mention is the more than l00 cars per night, not an isolated vandalism event, and the cars are not vandalized and stolen for joyrides but are torched.  The buses which are torched and sometimes the occupants in them are of no consequence to you.  I suspect the persons assaulted, set on fire, beaten and killed are unwilling to consider the poor youths as "football hooligans" and could give a damn less about their identity issues.
 
Your "beloved Europe" is dead and its body is being picked by leftists and terrorists.

@ Baudelaire

Ralph Peters' remarks on Europe are a strange mixture of (1) factual 'truth' about negative European history together with positive contemporary American reality, and (2) idiotic anti-Europeanism.  His remarks should be seen as a 'warning' to tone-death Europeans, who are not likely to listen anyway..... But his remarks are also idiotic in terms of misrepresenting contemporary European reality - his comparison of Le Pen's National Front with the Ku Klux Klan provided my 'breaking point' of tolerance for his remarks - and in terms of predicting future American actions.  The latter will be hopefully based on American selfinterest, not anti-European sentiment.

Peters' article is a further indication of growing anti-European sentiment among the American public.  There is no doubt in my mind that that sentiment remains small when compared with the anti-Americanism that prevails in Europe today.  But it is growing steadily (largely outside the traditional main 'liberal' American media). 
In recent history Europe's salvation has necessarily and repeatedly had to come from the 'west', not the east.  It will not likely be different in the foreseeable future.  In their shortsighted pursuit of third-world popularity and 'multiculturalism', Western-Europe's politicians and 'elites' of the past quarter century (on the whole) have been on a disastrous course of feeding anti-Americanism at home and undermining western unity, and thus the survival of western civilisation itself.    

It isn't dangerous to walk in a street in what they call "sensitive urban areas” (except after dark), but in some of them, it is dangerous to live permanently (although I have no personal experience of it). I think it is the same as in the USA.

The list of the 751 sensitive urban areas should not be taken too seriously. For example, they give the names of 3 areas in Lorient and only 2 in Rouen, when in fact you have much more immigrants in Rouen. It just indicates where some of the immigrants live. But in the "immigrant districts" of a small town like Lorient, immigrants are still a minority, and it is not dangerous, as it is around Paris.

And of course there are zones were poverty and unemployment is relatively high, resulting in a higher crime rate.

Higher crime rate results from high immigrant rate, not from poverty. In Brittany where I live, our first collective rape in a school was reported in newspapers only two years ago. For that, we should thank the compassionate immigration enthusiasts. We'll have many more in the future.

Do you really believe that they are all fundamentalists tied together into a greater secret malicious plan to take over Europe? Nonsense!

There is no conspiracy on the part of immigrants, but I still think the media's support of immigration is malicious.

A little bit of Saudi money and a few radical imams should do the trick

I can't believe that rapes and most other violent attacks have anything to do with islam.

Thanks Bruno.

I think it is safe to say that the risk is that a large number of poor, unemployed, and resentful youths is easily transformed into a radical political force by those with an expertise in these matters. A little bit of Saudi money and a few radical imams should do the trick.

peter vanderheyden wrote :...like so many of impoverished young people around the world do.

Never heard that poor youths in India or Brazil went after jews and arson their schools or school-buses or try to beat to death schoolchildren whom they think are jewish....

To those who may not know it : There are quite a number of modest jews living in the "93" departement in France (even if many moved to protect their families), an area north of Paris with a high percentage of muslims, and ALL the jewish institutions, synagogs and schools are under discreet surveillance by the police after having been repeatedly attacked and arsoned by young muslims. Many of these institutions have changed the way they operate and developped protocols to try to limit the risks.
It take some courage (that Peter may not be aware of, from his safe all-european neighborhood) for traditionally-dressed jews to walk in the street, and I saw such isolated men or women several times in these areas.

Sonomaca wrote:

Question for those in France: if an "ethnic" Frenchman or, say, a Christian African were to venture into said zones, what would be the consequences. Does the Fedex guy deliver to these zones? Do any whites live in the zones? Just looking for some on-the-ground color.

What zones? Let's get real here. Of course there are zones were the big majority consists of immigrants or offspring of immigrants. And of course there are zones were poverty and unemployment is relatively high, resulting in a higher crime rate. And yes, quite often zones of immigrants are poverty zones. But certainly in Belgium those zones are not no-go zones. And if somebody ventures in these zones nothing happens at all. OK. Yes, if you leave your fancy car behind in those streets the chances are higher the car might be stolen or vandalized. But that is by no means different from the suburbs where impoverished Europeans live. Look at the football hooligans, and you are probably confronted with a much higher problem then those Muslim youths. Do you really believe that they are all fundamentalists tied together into a greater secret malicious plan to take over Europe? Nonsense! Young girls, shopping around in European fancy cloths, but wearing a veil nevertheless says it all. They protest. Yes. They are demanding the right to an identity of their own, and some respect for it. But they speak the same language; listen to the same music as our youngsters do. And yes the male youth with a lack of chances ( for some extend due to their own behavior) gather in groups that come out arrogant and watch each other backs, like so many of impoverished young people around the world do. That is not related to their descent, culture or religion. It’s an overall existing society problem we should try to deal with. I hope Peters is wrong, and it’s really shocking to hear people talk like this about my beloved Europe. But if the Brussels Journal would be his window on Europe, one hardly can blame him for his harsh views.

It is precisely this appeasement from Europeans and avoiding the confrontation with islam

I would rather say we have been avoiding confrontation with the extreme left. The only reason Islam is a problem in Europe is because the extreme left has been forcing mass immigration on us. Common sense tells us we should change our policy, but the extreme left has a grip on the media, and the result is paralysis. Mass immigration to Europe will keep increasing in the near future.

..comments are right on the money about Europeans IMHO.
If Paul Beliën thinks Europe's problems are self-inflicted and the existence of a partial Eurabia a fact than i can't agree with him more also.
But it is therefore absurd not to devastatingly blame Europe for it's future and that future will not be islamic.
Europeans may be world class dhimmis but they ARE admitelly world class (self)haters.
Europe is mostly to blame for emboldening the arrogance of many backwards religious sheep even more.Thank islam for it's agression and nihilistic stupidity also why Europe takes notice silently now, and waits...
It is precisely this appeasement from Europeans and avoiding the confrontation with islam which will create an enormous backlash against muslims and a fierce and utter destructive response will come..very late..at the worst/last or best moment that suits the natives, either from the top or from the populae.
If you poop dayly on the driveway of your leftie neighbour, he will notice.
Maybe one has to poop averagely a few hunderd times more but he will react eventually and even with more ferocity than expected to stop you.I have no doubts that Europe will completely surprise not only herself or Mr. Beliën but even the likes of Mr. Peters when it explodes in violence.

These "sensitive urban areas" did not become muslim/arab overnight : french (and portuguese or spanish-born) people had to leave progressively due to the fact that they were overwhemingly the targets of crime, and that their kids were harassed and rackeetered at school by the ever more agressive young arab-muslim crowd.
There are still a few ethnic europeans in those places but they keep low profile and when we hear about stories of extreme violence against isolated kids in there by mobs of young arabs, the victims often happen to be "whites", chinese, or non-muslim blacks.
Some of the europeans still living there are also retired workers who can't afford to live elsewhere and learned how to survive in such a company. Surviving rules include never complaining for the daily nuisance of noise (at night and evening), or for the degradations in the subsidized housing (systematic damages done to the elevators, graffiti inside and outside, trash...).
Remember that more than 100 cars burn EVERY DAY in France, and those who complain about 12 year old arabs making their life a nightmare will see their car arsoned the next night.
Of course, crime is mostly unpunished as those who would testify at the police would risk their life. In extreme cases, like this young woman who was burned whith gasoline by a young muslim (for refusing him) and disfigured for life, the french state had to find an appartment for her and her brother in a secure area elsewhere and even managed to have them hired as state employees. Otherwise, they would have been subjected to retaliation. But these are exceptions, of course.

Upon reading Ralph Peters' remarks about Europe, I felt uneasy, even sickened. His rant was so absurd, so utterly puerile, that to respond to it seems almost an act of absurdity in itself, for why bother commenting on such an unhinged argument? It would be best to simply ignore it and move on. But I can well understand Mr. Belien's desire to take issue with Peters.

I've been reading the Brussels Journal for over a year. Without it, I would most certainly never hear of some of the events going on in Europe. I am aware of the growing anti-Americanism in Europe, but one thing we can certainly do without is a budding anti-Europeanism in America. And I fear that is precisely what is at the root of Mr. Peters' article. I recognize the bias in certain European media outlets in describing America or in trying to slant the news in a certain way that portrays America forever in a negative light. This will naturally cause those of us on this side of the Atlantic to take umbrage at such bias, but we ought to be careful we do not fall into the trap of viewing Europe through the same lens. Our criticism must be reasoned. The fact is, we ought to always seek to higher the tone of the debate and not fall prey to muckraking or attack journalism. It's such a simple observation, but sadly we never learn.

I feel uncomfortable with Peters' article precisely because it does nothing to offer possible solutions to the extraordinarily difficult problems both Europe and America face. Instead, it aims low, thus bypassing reason in its attempt to be provocative.

I am a fan of Europe. I want it to succeed. I am so frustrated at the myopia effecting many of our supposed "intellectuals" who engage in the most meaningless name-calling and point-scoring while the world is ablaze with vastly more urgent issues, issues that indeed threaten our cultures and our shared civilization.

I am reminded of Churchill's somewhat humorous quote about Americans. He said, "Americans will always do the right thing...after they've exhausted all the alternatives." I hope we can say the same for Europe. It is said that the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. Europe seems to be coming to terms with this; perhaps not so much its leaders--who appear willfully blind to the reality that surrounds them--but rather the European people. And that is where I put my faith: in the people of Europe.

Question for those in France: if an "ethnic" Frenchman or, say, a Christian African were to venture into said zones, what would be the consequences. Does the Fedex guy deliver to these zones? Do any whites live in the zones? Just looking for some on-the-ground color.

Twenty years ago, as an American student, I stayed with a French friend in a housing project in Le Blanc Mesnil. At that time, the project was safe, pleasant, and racially mixed. I don't recall speaking with any North Africans (my friends called them "Les Arabes"), and I know that even at that time they were regarded with suspicion by my white and Caribbean friends.

My friend was on the French junior national handball team, and the team consisted of whites, Africans, and Caribbeans. They all got along very well, and hung out with each other after practice. Again, I don't recall any North Africans around the training center at all.