Music and the Rise and Decline of Western Civilization

From the desk of Fjordman on Fri, 2009-10-02 11:56

This text overlaps with a few of my earlier essays like Why Muslims Like Hitler, but Not Mozart. I have had some interesting discussions with Ohmyrus, the essayist who runs the Democracy Reform blog. He is a Chinese man who appreciates aspects of Western civilization that many Westerners have forgotten or rejected. He is not unique in this regard. One of the best books about European culture is Defending the West by the former Muslim Ibn Warraq, who was born in the Indian subcontinent. As a native European it is strange to notice how some (non-Muslim) Asians apparently appreciate my civilization more than intellectuals in my own country do. The Iranian-born ex-Muslim Ali Sina denounces Western Multiculturalism in his book Understanding Muhammad, which I have reviewed online:

“If any culture needs to be preserved, it is the Western, Helleno-Christian culture. It is this culture that is facing extinction….We owe our freedom and modern civilization to Western culture. It is this culture that is now under attack and needs protection.”

Ohmyrus believes, like myself, that the West is in decline, not just in relative terms as a percentage of the global economy or population but in real terms. He points to structural flaws in our democratic political system, which “tends to divide people, pitting one race against another and one economic class against another” and is by the nature of its short election periods not well suited for long-term planning. European civilization reached its peak when it was pre-democratic, and Muslims have found it easier to penetrate democratic than pre-democratic Europe. In nineteenth century Britain, Queen Victoria and the aristocracy were not as powerful as their ancestors had been, but they wielded more power than today. Power was divided between the monarch, the House of Lords and the House of Commons in Parliament. This corresponds to what ancient political theorists such as Aristotle would have called a good balance between the monarchic, the aristocratic and the democratic elements of society.

Ohmyrus, who is a Christian, believes that one of the reasons why the Scientific Revolution took place in Europe and not in Asia is Christianity, which taught people that God had created the universe according rational laws which could to some extent be discovered and described by humans. While the West originally enjoyed more free speech and free inquiry than most other societies, in some critical aspects related to immigration, free discourse in the West has in recent years become stifled by ideological censorship. As he states, “Anyone suggesting that some races are more intelligent than another is labeled a racist and even threatened prosecution for a hate crime. Substitute ‘heretic’ for ‘racist’ and we are almost back in medieval times. But over here in Asia, there is hardly any problem in discussing it.”

Ohmyrus thinks that Western civilization is currently living off the cultural capital produced in earlier times when power lay in the hands of a better educated elite whose personal interests coincided with the long term interests of the country. This may be partly true, but I personally believe that one of the greatest problems facing us today is precisely the fact that the interests of Western nation states do not always overlap with the narrow interests of the elites. In previous generations, rich and influential individuals would often support nation states not only emotionally but also pragmatically in order to enhance their own wealth and power. In the age of international organizations and powerful multinational corporations that wield more power than many smaller countries, this is no longer the case. These same elites will now look to other organizations and tools to further their personal interests and careers.The democratic system has its flaws but worked to some extent as long as there was sense of being a demos, a people with a shared identity and common ethnic interests. This is gradually breaking down in Western countries, starting from the top. Powerful groups frequently have more in common with the elites in other countries than they have with average citizens in their own. Without a pre-political loyalty, emotional ties or even a pragmatic interest in supporting nation states, the democratic system becomes a vehicle for distributing favors to your friends at home and abroad, for betraying your voters and hopefully ensuring a lucrative international career along the way. You will have few moral scruples against importing voters from abroad for maintaining power or because your business friends who provide you with financial support desire access to cheap labor. This process is related to technological globalization but has gone further in the self-loathing West than in any other civilization.

In Western Europe, much of the real power has been transferred to the unelected organs of the European Union. Between 1999 and 2004, 84 percent of the legal acts in Germany – and the majority in all EU member states - stemmed from Brussels. National elections are becoming an increasingly empty ritual. The important issues have been settled behind closed doors. Our daily lives are run by a bloated bureaucracy, which is becoming increasingly transnational.

In the eyes of the left-wing American theorist Noam Chomsky, “The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum.” In most Western countries the public has a choice between left-wing candidates who champion mass immigration and “right-wing” candidates who also champion mass immigration and implement the left-wing agenda at a slightly slower pace. This is called “freedom.” The mass media present a biased and ideologically filtered view of the world. The fact that members of the media and the academia tend to be more, sometimes a lot more, left-leaning politically than the average populace is well-documented.

This situation is intensified by the fact that globalization of communications and transportation, ironically to a large extent created by European and Western inventions, puts severe pressure on our nations in ways which were unthinkable a few generations ago. When the Christian Gospels were written down at the end of the first century AD, the population of the Roman Empire was maybe 60 million people. This mirrors the annual population growth in the early twenty-first century. In other words: The global population grows by another Roman Empire every single year. Our system wasn’t designed to cope with such numbers.

Virtually all Western countries have lost control over their borders, or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the political elites, substantially aided by multinational corporations and cheaper travel, have deliberately vacated such control. This is not a sustainable situation. You can call your political system a democracy, a dictatorship, a republic, a monarchy or whatever you want to, but a country that does not control its territory will eventually die.

I am increasingly supporting the conclusion that the political and economic elites throughout the Western world are cooperating on dismantling their nation states in favor of a new, global world order. Swamping their countries with immigration is one step in this planned “creative destruction.” Author Bat Ye’or in her well-researched book Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis from 2005 documents how the European Union is actively collaborating with the Arabic-Islamic world on promoting Muslim immigration and culture in Europe. I myself wrote a book entitled Defeating Eurabia while going through her claims, and found them to be sound.A flaw frequently pointed out in the democratic system is that the “common man” is on average not smart enough to run a country, but when it comes to promoting Multiculturalism and mass immigration of alien and often hostile peoples it is in every single Western country the political, economic and academic elites who are pushing for this. Resistance to these suicidal policies comes from the common man. Another problem is that in the post-Enlightenment ideological environment, especially after Marxism, there is a tendency among some educated elites to view the common man as a guinea pig for their social experiments.

The West is a non-traditionalist civilization. We have unquestionably made great advances that no other civilization has done before us, but maybe the price we pay for this is that we also make mistakes that nobody has done before us. Organized science is a modern Western invention. Organized national suicide, too, is a modern Western invention. Our university system once represented a great comparative advantage for Europe vis-à-vis other civilizations. Today that same system is undermining the very civilization that gave birth to it.

Marxists have essentially completed their Gramscian “Long March” through the institutions of the Western world during the second half of the twentieth century, accelerating from the 1960s on with the Western Cultural Revolution. Young Westerners are at best taught indifference, at worst outright hatred, toward their own cultural heritage and civilization. The irony in this is that it is precisely the more educated groups who are the most anti-Western ones because they have spent many years absorbing anti-Western teachings.If you have one brainwashed generation then you have a problem. If you have two brainwashed generations then you have a very serious problem. If you have three brainwashed generations then you have a problem that is so big that it becomes difficult to solve, because few in living memory can remember how it was to have a sane worldview. We are now fast approaching a point where young Westerners, indoctrinated with anti-Western hatred, not only do not receive a correction from their parents, but in many cases not even from their grandparents. By then we have reached a serious cultural discontinuity.As much as I personally loathe admitting it, Marxists and other anti-Western forces have been far more successful at staging a slow, “permanent” revolution in the West than they ever were at staging an armed revolution. They have partly succeeded in their goal of eradicating Western civilization from within and are now working hard to physically eradicate the European peoples who created this civilization to ensure that it cannot be rebuilt in the future, either. They achieved this feat not by gaining control over the means of production but over the means of indoctrination, the mass media and the education system.

Out of all the criticism against Europeans, the claim of “Eurocentrism” is the most unfair. All cultures are ethnocentric to some degree. Frankly, I would be tempted to say that the default position of mankind is that “We are the best people, the others are barbarians.” I'm not going to claim that you cannot find serious cases of bigotry in European history. You can. But what is unique about Europe is our ability to sometimes transcend this basic human impulse. Even during the colonial period, Western Europeans could show an unusual degree of curiosity about other cultures and their history. This is one of the major reasons why archaeology and comparative linguistics were invented by Europeans; we were one of the least ethnocentric groups, yet for some reason the only ones who are denounced for our alleged ethnocentrism.The problem is that whites are now the only ethnic group on the planet who are not allowed to retain distinct countries or pride in their heritage. This is creating a wave of quietly simmering anger against immigration and at least as much against Western authorities, rightly perceived as indifferent or hostile to their interests. It is debatable whether supporting a “Christian revival” is the right solution to this situation since Christianity promotes altruism, self-criticism and universalism, while some of the greatest problems of the white West today are caused by deranged altruism, pathological self-criticism and excessive universalism.

You can successfully track the rise and decline of Western civilization through music. There are other ways to do this, of course, but music is as good as any, and better than most. With the likes of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, it is not bigotry to say that Europeans created some of the greatest music any civilization on this planet has ever done. During the same time period we also made advances in science and technology that no other civilization had ever done before us. There appears to be a close correlation between the sciences and the arts. Perhaps it has something to do with cultural confidence and sense of purpose, or lack of such.Europeans still made good music in the nineteenth century, but fewer great names were produced in the twentieth. By the early twenty-first century, many Europeans don’t even listen to the composers we once had. The only people who take European Classical music seriously today are East Asians and maybe some people in the eastern half of Europe, the only part of the continent that still looks like Europe. If you want to see a simple illustration of cultural decline you can listen to basically anything by Mozart and then turn on the TV and see rap stars cursing, doing drugs and bragging about their criminal “gangster” lifestyle.

Asians adopt some of the highest cultural achievements of European civilization at a time when many people of European descent themselves appear to be on the verge of forgetting them, which is symbolic on many levels. On the other hand, Asians are more or less immune to the self-loathing of the contemporary West. I see this as a sign that they appropriate the best aspects of the Western traditions but stay away from the worst ones, which makes sense.

China had fine instruments and a well-developed musical tradition at least as far back as the Zhou period (1122-256 BC). The word “music” was written with the same character as “enjoyment.” There is no direct equivalent to Mozart or Beethoven in Asia, but perhaps the fact that they have such an ancient and deeply-rooted native tradition makes in easier for East Asians to appreciate the fruits of other musical cultures. David P. Goldman, who writes under the pen name “Spengler” for the Asia Times Online, thinks that “The present shift in intellectual capital in favor of the East has no precedent in world history.” According to him, European Classical music “produces better minds, and promotes success in other fields.” A high proportion of the students at top Western musical schools are now Koreans, Chinese and Japanese, followed by Eastern Europeans. There are comparatively few North Americans or Western Europeans among the best instrumentalists.

According to Spengler, “China has embraced the least Chinese, and the most explicitly Western, of all art forms. Even the best Chinese musicians still depend on Western mentors. [Pianist] Lang Lang may be a star, but in some respects he remains an apprentice in the pantheon of Western musicians. The Chinese, in some ways the most arrogant of peoples, can elicit a deadly kind of humility in matters of learning. Their eclecticism befits an empire that is determined to succeed, as opposed to a mere nation that needs to console itself by sticking to its supposed cultural roots. Great empires transcend national culture and naturalize the culture they require.” Albert Einstein received a thorough philosophical education by studying Kant, Schopenhauer, Hume and Spinoza in addition to mathematics and the physical theories of Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday and James Maxwell. This taught him how to think abstractly about space and time. He was also an enthusiastic amateur musician and would play his violin as a way of thinking through a difficult physics problem. His mother was an accomplished pianist and pushed for him to take violin lessons. At first he chafed at the mechanical discipline of the instruction, but after being exposed to Bach and to Mozart’s sonatas, music became magical to him. Author Walter Isaacson writes in his biography Einstein: His Life and Universe:

“‘Mozart’s music is so pure and beautiful that I see it as a reflection of the inner beauty of the universe itself,’ he later told a friend. ‘Of course,’ he added in a remark that reflected his view of math and physics as well as of Mozart, ‘like all great beauty, his music was pure simplicity.’ Music was no mere diversion. On the contrary, it helped him think. ‘Whenever he felt that he had come to the end of the road or faced a difficult challenge in his work,’ said his son Hans Albert, ‘he would take refuge in music and that would solve all his difficulties.’ The violin thus proved useful during the years he lived alone in Berlin, wrestling with general relativity. ‘He would often play his violin in his kitchen late at night, improvising melodies while he pondered complicated problems,’ a friend recalled. ‘Then, suddenly, in the middle of playing, he would announce excitedly, ‘I’ve got it!’ As if by inspiration, the answer to the problem would have come to him in the midst of music.’ His appreciation for music, and especially for Mozart, may have reflected his feel for the harmony of the universe.”

Einstein was not as fond of Ludwig van Beethoven as he was of Johann Sebastian Bach, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and Franz Schubert. According to Walter Isaacson, “What Einstein appreciated in Mozart and Bach was the clear architectural structure that made their music seem ‘deterministic’ and, like his own favorite scientific theories, plucked from the universe rather than composed. ‘Beethoven created his music,’ Einstein once said, but ‘Mozart’s music is so pure it seems to have been ever-present in the universe.’ He contrasted Beethoven with Bach: ‘I feel uncomfortable listening to Beethoven. I think he is too personal, almost naked. Give me Bach, rather, and then more Bach.’ He also admired Schubert for his ‘superlative ability to express emotion.’ But in a questionnaire he once filled out, he was critical about other composers in ways that reflect some of his scientific sentiments: Handel had ‘a certain shallowness’; Mendelssohn displayed ‘considerable talent but an indefinable lack of depth that often leads to banality’; Wagner had a ‘lack of architectural structure I see as decadence’; and Strauss was ‘gifted but without inner truth.’”

The Russian ex-pat author Alexander Boot was a philology graduate of Moscow University under the Communist system during the Cold War, lectured on English and American literature and wrote art criticism before getting into trouble with the KGB, the secret police and espionage organization of the Soviet Union. Boot emigrated to the West in 1973 only to discover that the West that he admired and was seeking no longer existed. This inspired a life-long quest for an explanation, some of it detailed in his book How the West Was Lost.

Alexander Boot has a deeply Christian way of seeing the world, which I as a non-believer obviously do not always share, but he brings fresh and unusual perspectives to analysis and to history, which can often prove fruitful. In his view, “Religion, for all the misdeeds committed by it or in its name, was the foundation on which Westman culture and civilization had been erected. Destroy the foundation, and down comes the whole structure with a big thud.”

Boot sees Western history as a prolonged internal struggle between two different beings which he calls Modman and Westman, which Modman eventually won. Saint Paul was a Roman Christian and the first Westman. Modman saw himself as close to divine; Jesus Christ, God as man, had been replaced by Modman as God. For Modman to become God the old God had to die first. Modman followers are introspective because their own self-expression has taken on huge proportions. Boot traces the development of Western civilization through art and ideas, but especially music since “nothing illuminates culture as much as music.”

He argues that you can find the early seeds of some ideological perversions already in Beethoven at the turn of the nineteenth century, post-French Revolution, which did not exist in the compositions of Mozart or Haydn, let alone Bach. There was a new type of artist: the conscious innovator. Boot is not saying that music should remain unchanged. Just like life itself, music cannot remain static. Bach was not identical to those before him, and Haydn was not like Bach. With Mozart, Classicism had been taken as far as it could go. Something new would inevitably develop, but Beethoven pushed the limits in both good and bad ways:

“Beethoven, a genius though he was, had Modman tendencies and drew not only human but even artistic inspiration from the 1789-1815 upheaval in France. This manifested itself either directly, in pieces like his 3rd Symphony and the 5th Piano Concerto, or indirectly in the bravura finales of many of his other works. In common with most Modmen, Beethoven believed that the future was knowable, plannable and rationally mouldable, which is why it had to be glorious.”

Interestingly enough I have heard a few people from former Communist countries state that they do not like Beethoven because they sense some form of ideological megalomania underlying his music. Personally, I would say that a man who could compose timeless and beautiful pieces of music such as the Moonlight Sonata cannot have been all bad, but it is undoubtedly true that he was not a humble craftsman like Bach was. Alexander Boot is not claiming that Beethoven produced bad pieces, something a genius like him was incapable of doing, but he made a conscious attempt to break the old forms just for the sake of breaking them, and by doing so paved the way for more destructive personalities of lesser talent:

“Art began to worship at the altar of subjective originality rather than objective truth. Yet, until the nineteenth century it had been universally accepted that looking for truth was the real purpose of art. Because of that, traditional forms had a liberating rather than constricting effect. The artist could take the canonical foundation of his work as a given and concentrate instead on the higher goal. As long as truth did emerge, it did not matter to the artist whether he was the first to uncover it or the thousandth. Westman did not see life as a race, and he was free of the hubristic desire to be original at any cost.”

This humble respect for tradition did not lead to artistic cloning, as an artist seeking a higher truth can only find a vision of it in his own soul, which means that his vision of truth will always be individual. He was largely immune to the self-deification of Modman.

According to Boot, “great music cannot survive in a free-market way while remaining great music” because “serious art was not designed, and cannot be produced, for large numbers. If it is, it stops being serious art.” The twentieth century was the age of mass consumers, not the aristocratic patrons who supported Mozart, and “As audiences became mass-produced, so did performers.” Consequently, “Music had to be downgraded to the status of entertainment – serious entertainment to be sure, but not something meeting any claim to enigmatic nature.”

Alexander Boot’s basic conclusion is that the West is dead, but as a Christian man he also believes in resurrection and in life after death. Perhaps that is not a bad summary.

@ pale rider Part 2

Submitted by atheling on Sun, 2009-10-11 19:31.

Relatively speaking, there really are not all that much Christians in China.

And there were only 12 apostles of Christ, and a small bunch of ragtag followers in the beginning. Remember the parable of the mustard seed?

India is also a rising power and there are relatively few Christians. Brazil's religiosity is on the decline and yet it is also set to become an important world player in the 21st century. Japan is still one of the most prosperous nations on earth and yet only about 1% to 2% (at most) of its citizens describe themselves as Christians.

Japan is dying. Their demographics are just as dismal as Europe's. Whether India and Brazil will continue to grow and become a "superpower" remains to be seen, as becoming a “superpower” will rely just as much on societal constructs as well as on economic ones. It could be a house of cards come tumbling down if there is no solid foundation, i.e., the stability of the family, work ethics, etc… Again, what I am saying is that if China continues its trajectory of economic growth coupled with a surging Christian population, it will be a force to be reckoned with, just as America was, based on the same Christian model.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, being the perfect atoning sacrifice to God and the true High priest. I believe firmly that although we are not under the Law, the moral laws of God remain applicable and have not been done away with.

I find it a bit confusing. When you say “Law”, are you referring to the Mosaic Law, particularly with food? Yes, I agree with you in that respect.

Your comment on Latin America actually reflect my own thoughts, in that we as mere human beings cannot possibly foreknow what God has in store, unless it is revealed in sciptures

Again, Sola Scriptura. I do not agree that we cannot "foreknow" things unless it is based on Scripture. The faculty of reason must be utilized. There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of the Trinity, yet reason can extrapolate that there exists three persons in one God.

I don't think I can agree about pagan myths being a foreshadowing of Christ though. I could think of examples from Egyptian mythology but, if anything, I believe those are perversions of the truth rather than foreshadowings. But that is off-topic and rather irrelevant to the discussion.

Let me explain what "foreshadowment" actually is. You say that it does not apply because the pagan myths are "perversions". I'm not sure that's an accurate term. But first, let us examine what a "shadow" is. It gives us a vague shape, but has no substance. It is not real, but is merely an outline of the actual thing. Therefore, myths can accurately be called "shadows" of the truth. So the myth of Odin or of Athena (or other pagan myths such as Egyptian ones) truly do render an early vision, or "shadow" of Christ. They offer us inaccurate renderings of Christology, but should not be dismissed. Indeed, one can say that the fact that myths exist in early man demonstrates the truth that man's psyche is wired for Christ. I do not find that "irrelevant". I find it awesome and it gives me a deeper appreciation for God and his creation. As a matter of fact, C.S. Lewis was converted from atheism as a result of this explanation of mythology as presented to him by G.K. Chesterton. It certainly helped me with some questions of faith too.

As I stated earlier, the poet or artist uses "foreshadowment" in his works to render an impending "revelation". Other tools include the use of metaphor to help the reader better grasp the nature of something, i.e., Shakespeare's use of the rose to describe the nature of love. Is it not reasonable to believe that God, who is an artist, would utilize the same tools to help us understand the unfolding truth or revelation about him, our relationship with him, and of his creation?

A Common Idiot's not so Swift Response

Submitted by Capodistrias on Wed, 2009-10-07 16:50.

Are Tristan and Isolde done yet? Or is the Ring cycle about to begin? PR? Atheling?

Now that I have succesfully gotten Atlanticist to run off with Kappert, any suitors for Kapitein Andre? Atheling?

Pale Rider next time you ride past one of us common idiots, do stop, not all of our idiocy is self-inflicted, well maybe in my case, but I'm sure most of the common idiots you'll pass in life could use a good Samaritan.

A Common Idiot 2

Submitted by KO on Wed, 2009-10-07 19:19.

I join in Capo's applause for PR's and atheling's duet of orthodoxy, and congratulate them on their fine religious education!

More @ pale rider

Submitted by atheling on Wed, 2009-10-07 00:44.

And it would seem that a lot of East Asians fancy intellectual and sophisticated, technical music and pride themselves in showing off their six year old son playing Eine Kleine Nachtmusik as if he were demon-possessed, rather than actually enjoying and contemplating the music and getting to the depth or the heart of the music.

You sure seem certain of the mind and intents of many East Asian classical musicians.  How many do you know of?

It's also interesting that you accuse them of doing exactly what Herr Mozart was accused of with his child prodigy.

@ Atheling

Submitted by pale_rider (not verified) on Tue, 2009-10-06 21:19.

Au contraire, it is because of Christianity that China will continue to gain power. There are now more Christians in China than there are Communists. Christian persecution is easing; the government has just started promoting larger families. China's growing affluence and power coincides with its conversion to Christianity, just as Europe's did.

Because of Christianity? I beg to differ. How is that when orthodox practicing Christians are being actively persecuted, do not have freedom of assembly, when the government demands that churches be registered and submit to the Chinese state, not allowing Christians to openly proclaim the Gospel? Last time I checked, religion was only legally allowed from age 18 onward. I'm not aware of any recent changes in this policy. The official and registered protestant church in China is mostly a parade. I once read that in some of these churches they do not even have Christmas services. The 'Catholic' church is not in communion with the Vatican. The Three-Self Patriotic movement attempted to prove that a national church can be loyal to the state, but what they essentially did is betray the foundational truth that the Church is universal and that our Christian duties transcend those of the nation, especially if the nation (or State, rather) actively seeks to counter the essence of Christianity, which is Christ being the Son of God and the true Redeemer of mankind, not Mao and other Communist charlatans. Our "Comrades" are first and foremost our brothers and sisters in Christ, for what communion hath light with darkness? That is not to suggest that we ought to neglect other duties and forsake our own people, but the communion of the Saints is 'universal' or 'catholic' in that God's Kingdom is not of this fallen world.

Now to return to the topic, I am also very optimistic about the appreciation many East Asians show toward Western classical music, but how do they really look at it? In the past, the violin was forbidden in the People's Republic of China as it was deemed to be an imperialist instrument. Yet now that it is allowed and compositions of Bach and Mozart are conducted, I do not get the impression that the Chinese - or most East Asians, for that matter - actually understand the very inspiration of a lot of Western classical compositions, much less do they seem to grasp the spiritual soul of Western civilization. What good are the Matthew Passion by Bach or Messiah by Händel when you have no idea whom they are actually about, and do not have the faintest idea what the Scriptures quoted in these oratorios actually mean? Indeed, when somehow the Johannes Passion is allowed to be conducted but public adoration of Christ is punishable by sentence to labor camps - death, basically (I'm talking specifically of the PRC and the DPRK here)? That's what I call hypocrisy! You might as well do away with much of classical music, since all you are left with after stripping down the content of the music and taking the music out of its historical context, is technicality.

And it would seem that a lot of East Asians fancy intellectual and sophisticated, technical music and pride themselves in showing off their six year old son playing Eine Kleine Nachtmusik as if he were demon-possessed, rather than actually enjoying and contemplating the music and getting to the depth or the heart of the music. Is that good? It's better than kids emulating 50 Cent, perhaps, but all in all what does it actually contribute to their society? Does it change their mindset? I very much doubt it. The PRC is still the PRC, and the Communist party is still Marxist, no matter how much it has diverted from Maoism. Ant-like obedience to the Marxist Saviors of the Chinese people is the norm. Serving any Lord other than the Comrade Leader is heresy.

Essentially what I fear is that Western classical music is being transformed from something technical though also organic and often deeply spiritual, into a mechanical, abstract and robotic display of intellectual achievement, an idolatry of self. Art for the sake of technicality only is not art, it does injustice to the composer. I would seriously like to know whether Handel, Bach, Haydn, Mendelssohn and others are comfortable having their music being studied and promoted out of delusions of grandeur and snobbery instead of worship and enjoyment of the Creator (or at least, an appreciation of this aspect of their music), which, on the whole, is hardly existent in much of modern East Asia (though there are exceptions).

Best regards.

@pale rider

Submitted by atheling on Tue, 2009-10-06 22:21.

You forget how the early European Christians were persecuted by the powers that be - a dying Roman Empire. And how did that turn out?

Don't you remember your Old Testament Scripture? Whenever the Hebrews remained faithful to God, they flourished and prospered. When they turned away from him, they became slaves to another people.

The same held for Europe. Europe's rise and decline also coincides with its embrace and rejection of Christianity.

From the Scripture I quoted earlier, can you not see the pattern and the promise?

RE: @pale rider

Submitted by pale_rider (not verified) on Tue, 2009-10-06 23:06.

"From the Scripture I quoted earlier, can you not see the pattern and the promise?"

That sounds almost like the prosperity gospel. The promise to Christians is not one of riches on earth. We have no assurance that China will eventually adopt Christianity as the Roman Empire did in the 4th century A.D. We do not know whether that is indeed God's will for China. Today, Latin America is probably one of the most openly Christian places on earth (at least on the surface). Just how prosperous and free is Latin America today, relatively speaking? Why is not Latin America the new Western civilization? Has Chile prospered because of a sudden embrace of or a re-dedication to Christianity, or because of the Chicago Boys' market reforms in the 80s? Did staunchly Catholic Spain thank its glory, power and riches to Christianity or to colonialism? Spain remained a very Catholic nation long after the steady decline of its empire, due to her government's mismanagement. So honestly I don't see how any of this correlates to religion. Black Africans have some of the most faithful Christians on earth among them, and yet their countries remain in deep poverty and ethnic and religious strife continues. As for China, there are many sects emerging there due to the fact that very immature converts are put in charge of a congregation, while lacking even in basic doctrinal matters and sometimes not even having the entire Bible at their disposal. People who are openly Christian are repressed in the economic sphere. So frankly I think you are confusing things here. Christians are God's people, but the Church, unlike ancient Israel, is not an ethnic group or an earthly nation. It is the brotherhood of the elect from all the nations, hence the principle of 'catholicity' or universalness. The Church does not need OT prophets and revelations because God revealed himself through Christ and we have everything in Scripture. Christ is our King. Prosperity and blessings may be bestowed upon the faithful but we have no assurance that this is always true. God sends the rain on both the just and the unjust, and often it is those who are evil at heart that will prosper most in this life. The promise we have is one of eternal life in Christ, not an earthly paradise, which is what the Jews thought the Messiah was going to establish upon His coming. You're of course free to disagree, this is just to clarify my position.

Best regards.

@ pale rider again

Submitted by atheling on Tue, 2009-10-06 23:50.

I do not subscribe to the prosperity gospel. That is a Protestant belief and I am Roman Catholic. Nor am I saying that prosperity is nation or race-based, but I can't help but see a pattern with Christian faith and the prosperity of nations. How can Christianity flourish and spread if there is no economic growth? The people must survive economically if the faith is to spread. If you read G.K. Chesterton's The Everlasting Man you might find some interesting thoughts about the Punic Wars and how they set up Rome to be the "super power" of the known world, and eventually become the seat of Christendom. I am not a deist. I believe that God is involved in the lives of men and nations, though I can't say to what end or why he does or does not "interfere" in some cases.

Your bringing up Latin America is an interesting point. Who knows what will happen in the future with North and South America? If the United States continues its economic decline (and note that this decline coincides with a decrease in faith among Americans), perhaps South America will supercede North America. But I know many, many Latin Americans who are not Christian. They too suffer the same spiritual malaise that infects the West. It seems that Christianity flourishes best where there is persecution, as it did for the early Christians of Rome. Does not the scripture quote say that the "Father" will "prune" the branches where he sees potential growth? Pruning involves resection and sacrifice, and it appears that the greatest Christian persecution is in China and North Korea, where it is driven underground.

I would not be too eager to dismiss the Old Testament and its lessons. In it we see many examples of foreshadowment (Joseph being sold for pieces of silver into slavery by his brothers, the aborted sacrifice of Isaac, the covenant between God and the Israelites and the New Covenant with Christ, etc...) that help us understand and ponder mysteries. Indeed, even pagan mythology contains foreshadowment of Christ, i.e., Odin hanging from a tree, Athena springing forth from the mind of Jove. Jung tells us that myths are universal truths found in man's psyche. Just as foreshadowment is a tool of the poet or writer, does it not seem reasonable to think that God, the supreme artist, uses it as a tool for his own story telling?

RE: @ pale rider again

Submitted by pale_rider (not verified) on Wed, 2009-10-07 00:59.

I'm not a Deist either, quite the opposite in fact. Perhaps what I wrote struck you as being Deistic, but my worldview is probably best described as an Augustinian one. I believe everything has been foreordained, but we cannot comprehend the fullness of all things due to the limitations of our minds. Since you are a Roman Catholic, I suppose that you are familiar with St Augustine's "City of God".

What I was saying is that we do not know exactly what plans God has for various nations, and that therefore I cannot agree that China's rise as a superpower is attributable to a rise or acceptance of Christianity among Chinese people. It is not taught in Scripture that an increase in Christian faith leads to national prosperity, and such earthly promises are not part of the covenant God has with believers. If you believe there is a correlation your views are not that different from what proponents of the prosperity gospel claim, like it or not. It's not a matter of whether you're a Protestant or not.

Relatively speaking, there really are not all that much Christians in China. India is also a rising power and there are relatively few Christians. Brazil's religiosity is on the decline and yet it is also set to become an important world player in the 21st century. Japan is still one of the most prosperous nations on earth and yet only about 1% to 2% (at most) of its citizens describe themselves as Christians.

Your comment on Latin America actually reflect my own thoughts, in that we as mere human beings cannot possibly foreknow what God has in store, unless it is revealed in sciptures. As for the OT, I'd be the last person to dismiss the OT. Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, being the perfect atoning sacrifice to God and the true High priest. I believe firmly that although we are not under the Law, the moral laws of God remain applicable and have not been done away with. I don't think I can agree about pagan myths being a foreshadowing of Christ though. I could think of examples from Egyptian mythology but, if anything, I believe those are perversions of the truth rather than foreshadowings. But that is off-topic and rather irrelevant to the discussion.

It seems that Christianity flourishes best where there is persecution, as it did for the early Christians of Rome.

Agreed.

You sure seem certain of the mind and intents of many East Asian classical musicians. How many do you know of?
It's also interesting that you accuse them of doing exactly what Herr Mozart was accused of with his child prodigy.

Wow! Apparently you have taken the adjective "demon-possessed" very literally as if I were claiming that there's something wrong with child prodigies. I hope I have not offended mister Mozart...

Seriously, the issue I raised is a philosophical one. I must not have managed to get that across. Classical music in itself does not necessarily have a healing effect on society. It's one thing to be fond of Classical music, but it's another matter entirely to actually appreciate the contents of the music, the inspiration of the composer. I don't know about you but I know of a lot of people who like to send their kids to violin classes to brag about it. Well, what do you think is happening in China where it is virtually forbidden to be an orthodox Christian but it's perfectly alright to conduct the Messiah oratorio. They accept Western classical music but denounce its inspiration and the historical context. Where's the redeeming factor in all this, please? There is none. So it's all nice to see the attention they're giving to classical music, but it's lamentable that they cannot and will not fully appreciate the intentions of the composers or the actual content of a lot of compositions. But that is of course true of a lot of other peoples as well. I hope you get the point.

Good night.
PR

@ pale rider... again Pt. 1

Submitted by atheling on Sun, 2009-10-11 19:16.

I believe everything has been foreordained, but we cannot comprehend the fullness of all things due to the limitations of our minds. Since you are a Roman Catholic, I suppose that you are familiar with St Augustine's "City of God".

I am reluctant to regard "everything" as foreordained as that smacks too much of Calvinism and predestination, and being RC, you know we regard that as a heresy! ;) I believe in free will and that God is omniscient. I must confess that I am more familiar with Augustine's Confessions than I am with his City of God and even the former was read many, many years ago. Too many books, too little time, alas.

What I was saying is that we do not know exactly what plans God has for various nations, and that therefore I cannot agree that China's rise as a superpower is attributable to a rise or acceptance of Christianity among Chinese people.

I agree with you that we do not know EXACTLY what God's plans are for nations. But I also think that throughout man's history, as delineated in Scripture, God has always had a relationship with a group of people whether it be the Israelites of the Old Testament or the followers of Christ in the New. I also note that those people with whom he is connected experience a growth in number ("Be fruitful and multiply"), strength (Remember how the Hebrews, when faithful to Yahweh, conquered their enemies and flourished? And look at Europe's ascendency while it was called "Christendom"), and power. The US was established on the creed that all men are created equal, and that man's rights come from divine law, not one of men or nations. And look at how the US became a superpower. My point is that in order for the Gospel to spread, there must be a correlating economic prosperity and growth, otherwise, just as a seedling will not grow in poor, untended and infertile conditions, the faith cannot be spread unless there are avenues by which it can travel and a people strong enough to proseltyze it. This is not about "reward", as the protestant concept of "prosperity gospel" preaches, but it is about the practical necessities which must be in place in order for God's Word to be known throughout the world, as Christ commanded.

It is not taught in Scripture that an increase in Christian faith leads to national prosperity, and such earthly promises are not part of the covenant God has with believers. If you believe there is a correlation your views are not that different from what proponents of the prosperity gospel claim, like it or not. It's not a matter of whether you're a Protestant or not.

Well, you know that as an RC, I do not subscribe to the theory of Sola Scriptura. As a matter of fact, the concept itself is unfounded, as there are no directives in Scripture to do so, ironically enough. The Catholic Church teaches that the doctrines of the faith come through reason and Scripture, and that reason, which is a singular faculty found only in man, must also be used to extrapolate truth.

Possessed by demons

Submitted by Bob Doney on Tue, 2009-10-06 21:38.

pale_rider:

And it would seem that a lot of East Asians fancy intellectual and sophisticated, technical music and pride themselves in showing off their six year old son playing Eine Kleine Nachtmusik as if he were demon-possessed, rather than actually enjoying and contemplating the music and getting to the depth or the heart of the music.

And, it has to be said, the increasing number of classical music competitions and awards ceremonies in the West add to this demon-possession. A pox on them all!

Bob Doney

A Swift(-ish) response to a common idiot

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Tue, 2009-10-06 20:51.

Sorry, but no can do. Kappert and myself have decided to elope from this island to Lilliput, where the giant Bonobo pygmy chimp is king and where we intend to spend the rest of our lives together happily googling Yahoos and calculating the maximum number of umlauts and diphthongs we can find in the words "Umlaut", "Yahoo" and "Diphthong".

Inquiry from a Common Idiot

Submitted by Capodistrias on Tue, 2009-10-06 19:19.

@Pale Rider

"This leads me to conclude that the common man is dead, having been devoured by the common idiot."

Is this a line from the Fine Young Cannibals' song: Bono Petit(e)?

@Atlanticist

A note in a bottle:

I will cease and desist only if you send Kappert over to serve me a White Russian, preferably one that looks like the ad that is now floating above our inane comments.

Sincerely,

Capodistrias, since no man is an island.

The common man? What is that?

Submitted by pale_rider (not verified) on Tue, 2009-10-06 18:31.

Quote:

"A flaw frequently pointed out in the democratic system is that the “common man” is on average not smart enough to run a country, but when it comes to promoting Multiculturalism and mass immigration of alien and often hostile peoples it is in every single Western country the political, economic and academic elites who are pushing for this. Resistance to these suicidal policies comes from the common man. Another problem is that in the post-Enlightenment ideological environment, especially after Marxism, there is a tendency among some educated elites to view the common man as a guinea pig for their social experiments. "

--

I agree with a lot of what you said in the article but I have to admit I cannot agree with you on this point. See ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, specifically in Ireland? Sure, the EU is pushing its own agenda down people's throats, but apparently the common man, who supposedly is opposed to the EU's foolish policies, is too dumb to stop electing the same politicians who have sold their national sovereignty to the EU over and over again. The common man blindly accepts media support for moral debauchery and political 'progressivism', and cheerfully embraces whatever a bunch of silly rockstars like that guy from U2 (I forgot his name but I think he's named after an apeman, or whatever) have to say on issues like climate change. If the common man were that common then we would never have gotten ourselves in this mess in the first place. So frankly I don't believe there is such a thing as the common man who is morally upright and thinks rationally. People not only deserve the government they want, they also deserve whatever government they allow to exist. Of course the people really means that the majority gets to decide who will rule over the people as a whole, including the minorities that disagree. This leads me to conclude that the common man is dead, having been devoured by the common idiot.

Not U2 (2) ?

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Tue, 2009-10-06 14:24.

@ Kappert

 

Friday doesn't get to choose (his or) her favourite musical pieces. (Read the book). And, after careful consideration, perhaps  (in your case) "She drives me crazy" by the British group Fine Young Cannibals should be top of my play list, should it not? (Don't worry, it isn't). Now where's that strawberry daiquiri I ordered?

Western civilization

Submitted by pale_rider (not verified) on Tue, 2009-10-06 13:05.

As for "Judaeo-Christian", I am not that bothered by this usage myself. I do have to admit that I dislike the manner in which some use this compound in an apparent effort to appease liberal Jews and claim that Western civilization is somehow greatly indebted to 'post-Jesus' rabbinical Judaism, which is simply not true.

Nonetheless, Jews have lived in the West for centuries and they have been an integral part of our civilization. The Christian religion has Jewish roots and Christ was a Jew no matter what some people claim. No New Testament without the Old Testament, no Messiah without the Torah and the OT prophets. Religious Jews and practicing Christians do share the same outlook on traditional values. The Ten Commandments come to mind.

However, I do think that it is a mistake to claim that our civilization is both Jewish and Christian. The true Jew is the one who is one inwardly, as St. Paul wrote, and in Christ there is neither Jew or Greek. Haredi Jews and conservative Christians will therefore find themselves at odds. Christians may be bound by the moral law, but they are by no means subject to dietary and ceremonial laws, for instance. Our Temple and our High priest is Christ.

To me, the "Judaeo" part is about acknowledging the roots of the Christian faith. I think that to include "Judaeo" is not a mistake when we are referring to the moral values of Western civilization. Where Islamic law orders that raped women be executed, the Torah orders that the rapist be executed.

In addition, I believe that to include "Judaeo" in the present day may be an appropriate way to express our respect toward Jews on a personal level in order to distance ourselves of the way the Church has, at various times, behaved toward them, as well as to demonstrate that Jews and Christians can live peacefully together whereas in Islam the Jews are - strictly speaking (i.e. in Islamic scriptures) - inferior and infidels.

Not so with Christianity. All of the Apostles were ethnic Jews, and virtually every Church Father and Reformer I have heard of, studied Hebrew.

Nonetheless, I think that if we truly wanted to describe our civilization in its entirety with regard to both morality or civil society and government, and give due credit to all main 'contributers', we might have to put it this way: Judaeo-Hellenistic-Christian civilization. After all, nobody can deny that without the Greeks and Romans, Western civilization would not have been what it is. In my view, it is this bizarre and seemingly impossible blend of Greco-Roman thought and a religion with Jewish, Semitic and Middle-Eastern roots that makes Western civilization so unique.

Judeo-Christian Quiz #1

Submitted by Capodistrias on Tue, 2009-10-06 12:37.

Which hyphenated term does not belong with the other two?

A) Canaanite–Judaic” B) “Catholic–Anglican” C) "Judeo-Christian

 

 

 

Not U2?

Submitted by Capodistrias on Tue, 2009-10-06 12:20.

@Kappert

I was sure you would also include Jim Croce. Oh well, at least you picked up the tempo a bit.

The Kappert Isle, folks, not just smoke on the water.

island invitation

Submitted by kappert on Tue, 2009-10-06 09:29.

Stranded on an island deserves really good music; so here are my absolute musts: Aida Nadeem, Deep Purple, Egberto Gismonti, Ekseption, Fairouz, Frank Zappa, Jan Garbarek, Jon Lord, Khaled, Pink Floyd, Sergey Rachmaninov, Wim Mertens, Xutos & Pontapés.

Not Jacobinism?

Submitted by Capodistrias on Tue, 2009-10-06 06:32.

@K.A.

I think it is; therefore, it is. Coercion and deportation has a wonderful Jacobin edge to it, whereas, conversion, and some coercion in self-defense, has a nice Christian ring to it. Don't you think?

The Jabberwocky translation engine is still working on the rest of your response to my post it will be ready sometime yesterday. Is it very tiring to say very silly things in a very serious manner? I'm still enjoying immensely your Bronze Age commentary that since all Ages speak and forewarn of catastrophic collapse it is almost certain that catastrophic collapse did not take place in the Bronze Age.

"Judeo" Part III - Replies to Capo & marcfrans

Submitted by Kapitein Andre on Tue, 2009-10-06 03:07.

Capodistrias,

 

I take issue with misleading emphasis that attempts to revise history.  An equally misleading emphasis might be “Canaanite–Judaic” or “Catholic–Anglican”.

 

And no, what I hint is not Jacobinism.  However, effecting the deportation of Muslims from Europe will require coercion, which is impossible without coercive measures that would be considered extraordinary by democratic governments.   

 

Marcfrans,

 

European or Western civilization is complex and far from monolithic or centralized.  As I noted in my prior comments, Christianity is inseparable from Judaism insofar as its origins and context are concerned.  However, Christianity is distinct from Judaism, just as Judaism is distinct from its Near Eastern and Eastern Mediterranean predecessors and influences.

 

Persecution and exclusion of the Jews by Christians in Europe was commonplace until relatively recently, and neither papal apologies nor evangelical sympathies can “revise” the past. 

 

Today, Jews are vigorous opponents of both Islam and Islamification.  So too are Russia’s Eastern Orthodox Christians, who face a greater demographic threat than any country in Western Europe.  However, even if political differences and national interests were set aside and Russia united with the West against Islam, this could not change centuries of conflict and distance between Eastern Orthodox societies and Western Catholic and Protestant ones.

 

As far as European/Western “values” are concerned, you cannot ignore the major contributions of the Hellenic city–states, the Roman Empire and Germanic tribes, or the lesser ones of the Celts and others.  The Judaic contribution – outside of Christianity – pales in comparison. 

Judeo # 2

Submitted by marcfrans on Mon, 2009-10-05 23:52.

Europeans have been persecuting Europeans since the beginnings of history.  Does that mean that there is no such thing as European (Western) civilisation?  I think not. 

The values that have shaped Western civilisation (in Europe and later in its diaspora as well) are properly called "judeo-christian" ones.  And, the relevant question is whether they will continue to be characteristic of the populations concerned, or not.  In the latter case, that civilisation will not survive everywhere in its current geographic space. 

   

Nothing to Sneeze At

Submitted by Capodistrias on Mon, 2009-10-05 23:34.

Judeo-Christian

"God Bless You"

Christian

"Bless You"

Judeo-Christian

"God Bless You"

Christian

"Bless You"

Don't let it get to you K.A., it's simply a matter of emphasis, not necessarily redundancy.

Now if we want to discuss disingenuos, we could discuss how one might assert that there is no need to emphaize the Judeo-Christian tradition while there is a need to emphasize:

"Christians of all denominations have persecuted Jews for centuries and to a large degree excluded them from Christian society."

Or, we could return to discussing redundancy if one insists:

K.A. said:

"We need an intellectual revolution: one that holds ethnic self–determination, the nation–state, liberalism and civilizational security as inviolate."

That would be called the French Revolution, a redundancy of epoch proportions, which has attempted to wash away in blood the Judeo-Christian, or simply Christian Soul of Western Civilization for centuries. Keep trying K.A., flail away; here's a little background music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XId7e3IoNk

 

 

On "Judeo"

Submitted by Kapitein Andre on Mon, 2009-10-05 19:18.

"Judeo" is not a "dirty word", at least not to me.  However, there is no need to hyphenate Christianity.  Every religion or philosophy is derived and borrows from others, yet each is distinct.  Anyone attempting to extricate Chriatianity from its origins in Judaism is on a fool's errand.  By the same token, it is equally ridiculous to refer to European civilization as "Judeo-Christian".  Christians of all denominations have persecuted Jews for centuries and to a large degree excluded them from Christian society.

 

The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth absorbed Muslim Turkic nomads, who were permitted to settle and practice Islam freely.  It even became a haven for Jews fleeing oppression in the rest of Europe.  However, the religious facet of Polish culture is not Judeo-Christian, Islamo-Christian or any combination thereof; it is Christian, specifically Catholic. 

Re: On "Judeo"

Submitted by atheling on Tue, 2009-10-06 04:29.

@KA:

By the same token, it is equally ridiculous to refer to European civilization as "Judeo-Christian". Christians of all denominations have persecuted Jews for centuries and to a large degree excluded them from Christian society.
I find the second sentence a complete non sequitor, and it does not justify separating the term "Judeo Christian".

Examples of Judeo Christian influence in Western culture:

"The writing on the wall"... "Philistine"... "David and Goliath"... "Parting the Red Sea"... "Paradise Lost"...

Those terms have very deep roots in the West's psyche. Clearly Christian Europe, in its literature and thought, has been greatly influenced by those themes, which are clearly Judaic.

Vox Humana # 2

Submitted by marcfrans on Mon, 2009-10-05 17:10.

@ Atheling

"The Barcarolle" floors me too.  Don't know why.

Also, your "Not so Fast" was spot on.  'Judeo' remains a dirty word in certain European quarters, which they share with the 'muslims'.

 

Vox Humana # 3

Submitted by atheling on Tue, 2009-10-06 04:51.

@marcfrans:

I think that part of the appeal of The Barcarolle (apart from its lovely melody) is its brevity and understatedness.

Always leaves one wanting more.

Atlanticist's Travels

Submitted by Capodistrias on Mon, 2009-10-05 14:37.

If Kappert accompanies you to your desert isle does that make her a fellow traveler?

And does that leave me alone, stranded on Kappert Isle?

And if there is no Kappert on Kappert Isle, does that mean I am just a Capo d'Istria?

What say you Traveller?

A recapitulation of your inquiry to mpresley:
"What the f..k are you talking about?" is probably appropriate here. : :-)

@mpresley

'final cause / ultimate goal, purpose'

I really thought you were on to something sublime, pity, maybe Kappert can chirp in after she's done fanning Atlanticist?

@Fjordam
"Alexander Boot has a deeply Christian way of seeing the world,..."

Not if it ends in death.

@ Capodistrias:

Submitted by mpresley on Mon, 2009-10-05 16:20.

Submitted by Capodistrias: I really thought you were on to something sublime, pity, maybe Kappert can chirp in after she's done fanning Atlanticist?

First, looking for something worthy of adoration, or awe inspiring from my writing is probably not advised. Nothing I write is unique to me, but is at best a synthesis of others who have more insight, and more intelligence than I in these matters. Thus, my failure should not be viewed as a pity in any sense. However, I try to be as clear and succinct as I can, and will respond to any particular questions or requests for clarifications that you might have. I'm not sure why you defer to another if you have a question or comment, though. Also, I appreciate any sensible comments and/or criticisms, but frankly admit to not knowing exactly your meaning in the above highlighted quote.

Re: Girl Friday

Submitted by atheling on Tue, 2009-10-06 04:14.

@A911:

Well if you get a girl Friday, I get a boy Friday. I will opt for the thinking woman's luxury model: Damian Lewis. ;)

Rise and Fall

Submitted by Kapitein Andre on Mon, 2009-10-05 04:12.

I concur with Ali Sina, and note his description of Western culture as “Helleno–Christian”.   It is refreshing not to see Judeo–Christian as the former’s contribution is implicit in the latter, making its inclusion redundant.  To my mind, Western culture broadly consists of Greco–Roman, Germanic and Christian intellectual traditions.  Moreover, by “Western” Christianity, I refer to Catholicism and Protestantism not “Eastern” Orthodoxy, as the latter evolved independently of and in opposition to the Western sects. 

 

Both Fjordman and Ohmyrus betray an ignorance of democracy, and an Aristotelian mistrust.   The alternatives to democracy tend to stratify divisions of ethnicity, race and class. The Han Chinese are content to subjugate the Manchurians, Tibetans and Uighurs, and whilst upper and middle classes flourish in the coastal conurbations, the hinterlands remain impoverished and undeveloped.  The 19th Century British Empire was based on divisions of class and ethnicity or race.  Forget returning power to monarchs and nobles; Aristotle’s virtuous dictatorship remains the ideal form of government, even if we have yet to make it work.

 

Today, the West is dismissive of its own intellectual traditions.  Academics appeal to notions of liberty and equality, conveniently ignoring that these products of the Enlightenment would have been impossible without Christianity.  My former history professor remarked that the last man who believed in the greatness of Rome, “was a Goth”.   The last man who will believe in the greatness of Europe, or the West or “whiteness” will no doubt be an East Asian. 

 

I agree that on the face of it, Christianity is not the answer.  Yet I am reminded of Justinian’s campaigning in the West, the Crusades, the persecution of the Albigensians and Huguenots, the Thirty Years War, the Troubles, et al.  It seems incredible that the National Socialists needed to launch “Positive Christianity”, when the original had worked for both the Austrian and Swedish bids for supremacy in Europe.

 

We need an intellectual revolution: one that holds ethnic self–determination, the nation–state, liberalism and civilizational security as inviolate.  On the one hand, white nationalism is more suited to white “settler societies”; on the other, ethnic English, Germans and others must cooperate to reclaim their ancestral homelands.   Unfortunately, as the problem is international or transnational, so too will its solution. 

@KA again...

Submitted by atheling on Mon, 2009-10-05 04:34.

The last man who will believe in the greatness of Europe, or the West or “whiteness” will no doubt be an East Asian.

Probably Chinese.

I agree that on the face of it, Christianity is not the answer.

Au contraire, it is because of Christianity that China will continue to gain power. There are now more Christians in China than there are Communists. Christian persecution is easing; the government has just started promoting larger families. China's growing affluence and power coincides with its conversion to Christianity, just as Europe's did.

I am the true Vine and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and every one that does, he prunes so that it bears more fruit. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch that cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into the fire and they will be burned". (John 15: 1-7)

not related to the topic, but a comment just the same:

Submitted by mpresley on Mon, 2009-10-05 16:58.

atheling writes: ...Au contraire, it is because of Christianity that China will continue to gain power. There are now more Christians in China than there are Communists. Christian persecution is easing; the government has just started promoting larger families. China's growing affluence and power coincides with its conversion to Christianity, just as Europe's did.

I just want to point out that because two events happen together does not mean they are causally related. It is true that China is gaining "power," and it is true that the nation is transitioning from a developing country into a fully industrialized nation. But it is also true that many other factors are likely more responsible than a nascent Chinese Christian community.

For instance, if you travel to the Shenzhen special economic zone, or neighboring Guangzhou, you will see manufacturing processes (factories and their support infrastructure) the likes of which God has not seen. What you will not see (and what is striking for a Westerner) are Christian churches, or, for that matter, any outward signs of Christianity. It is possible to be "awakened" at lunch by the sound of a ringing bell from a saffron robed Buddhist monk, but that's about it.

My experience is that the Chinese are capitalists first (at least those who are able to navigate business practices--and that is most of them), Chinese nationalists second, and anything else a distant third. This does not mean that Christianity will not become a larger influence, however, like capitalism (i.e., Socialism with Chinese Characteristics) it will probably evolve into a distinctly recognizable Chinese iteration. But your guess is as good as mine, or anyone else for that matter.

[As an aside, the Chinese are very superstitious, and in almost all businesses and even many homes you'll find a small shrine to the appropriate deity. Never saw a hanging Jesus, or Mary, Queen of the Universe shrine, though.]

As far as persecution goes, my impression is the CCP doesn't really care what you do, as long as you do it out in the open so they can watch. Like any totalitarian regime, they are very worried about subversion, and suspect groups of harboring political motivations. This is really why the Chinese government is hostile to Falun Dafa (Gong). They see them more as a political organization and only ostensibly religious.

@mpresley

Submitted by atheling on Tue, 2009-10-06 04:41.

You may disagree with my evaluation of why China is rising. However, I look at it with a particular lens that you do not. Your argument does not dissuade me from my opinion.

Also, there may be no visible Christian churches in China because they are underground, much like the catacombs in which the early European Christians used to practice their faith when under persecution.

another off topic reply (sorry)

Submitted by mpresley on Tue, 2009-10-06 23:00.

atheling on Tue, 2009-10-06 05:41. Also, there may be no visible Christian churches in China because they are underground, much like the catacombs in which the early European Christians used to practice their faith when under persecution.

I know (second hand) some mainland Chinese Christians. They are regular Chinese, and appear to be open about it. I am not an expert in this by any means, but would question the extent of their "underground" status. It could be, but from a practical standpoint it's likely better to be open with the Chinese regime in these matters. Better to go to church than secretly meet. That way, you will probably not be suspected of sedition. Also, I've seen Christian books in Chinese bookstores, but, as you can imagine, they are no use if you do not read Chinese. At the same time, if a Westerner brings in a suitcase of bibles, expect trouble; the government will suspect that you are engaging in visa fraud.

I also imagine that there is enough "underground" movement of goods that anyone wanting forbidden material can get it pretty easily. For instance, in Hong Kong one can buy the Chang-Halliday bio of Mao, although it is not allowed in mainland stores. But I've never seen any cars searched as they drive through Shenzhen border customs, therefore I believe it would be easy enough to bring pretty much whatever you wanted into the mainland, if you thought it was worth the risk.

@ mpresley

Submitted by atheling on Tue, 2009-10-06 23:55.

I'm not sure what your point is, but believe me, there are underground Christian churches in China. Many Catholic clergy are held in prisons by the Chinese government, while their flock meet secretly.

However, I read an article (I think it was in The Economist - I wish I can find it right now) about how Christianity is starting to become more open in China. That is also where I read that there are now more Christians than Communists there. The article had some interesting quotes from Chinese Christians who are also businessmen. They claim that eventually Christianity will be the dominant force in China, along with its growing capitalistic economy. If this is the case, they will be a force to reckon with. The fact that China owns most of the US's debt is another interesting factor. Passing the torch?

A General Clarification

Submitted by mpresley on Wed, 2009-10-07 21:48.

Submitted by atheling: The fact that China owns most of the US's debt is another interesting factor.

Just to clarify, the vast majority of the US debt is held by the Federal Reserve and US based institutions/individuals. About 30% of the debt is held by foreign entities, with China/HK being the largest, followed closely by Japan.

Not so Fast...

Submitted by atheling on Mon, 2009-10-05 04:20.

@Kapiten Andre:

I concur with Ali Sina, and note his description of Western culture as “Helleno–Christian”. It is refreshing not to see Judeo–Christian as the former’s contribution is implicit in the latter, making its inclusion redundant.

The Ten Commandments are quite explicit - by directive and by its morality as a bedrock of Christian faith. Therefore, Judeo-Christian is appropriate. To sunder the two is to strike at the roots of Christianity.

Why eight?

Submitted by Atlanticist911 on Sun, 2009-10-04 22:43.

Sorry, I really have no idea why Roy Plomley chose the number eight, but I do know that his original contract with the BBC was for eight weekly programmes. Coincidence? Probably. 

8 Pieces of Music

Submitted by atheling on Sun, 2009-10-04 18:37.

On a desert island:

1. Beethoven's 9th Symphony
2. Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto
3. Bach's Brandenburg Concertos (Is it cheating to list them all as "one piece"?)
4. Mozart's Symphony #40
5. Mozart's Violin Concerto #3
6. Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis - Vaughan Williams
7. Brahm's Piano Quartet Opus 25
8. The Moldau - Smetana

Just some personal faves.

Why eight? Why not a rounder number, like ten or twelve?

I've got a little list

Submitted by Bob Doney on Mon, 2009-10-05 09:32.

Good list, atheling, if not very eclectic!

I think on my desert island (you wish!) more than anything I would want the sound of the human voice, to include maybe:

Gigli
Sutherland
Simone
Piaf
Ferrier
Fischer-Dieskau
Brel
Popp

Only eight!

Bit of a tragic crew, but would cheer me up no end.

And here's one to get you going:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y99tXNxV5s&feature=related

Bob Doney

Vox Humana

Submitted by atheling on Mon, 2009-10-05 16:11.

@Bob Doney:

Well I'm only restricted to eight pieces. If I could have a dozen, I'd include:

1. Duettina from Lakme by Delibes
2. The Barcarolle from Tales of Hoffman sung by Joan Sutherland
3. Nessun Dorma sung by Pavarotti
4. Handel's Messiah (If I'm going to spend Christmas on the island, I might as well have that to celebrate)

But even a dozen is not enough!

Callas

Submitted by Bob Doney on Mon, 2009-10-05 11:55.

Callas? Some critics thought she destroyed her voice by losing weight. It certainly got very harsh in her later career.

But as I said, eight is not enough!! I could easily pick eight tenors alone, and then eight more.

Bob Doney

The least of Mozart

Submitted by Bob Doney on Sun, 2009-10-04 12:40.

The least of Mozart is better than anything available, today

Hi, M!

I agree with much you say about cultural relativism, but this looks awfully like cultural snobbery. There is fantastic new music being produced in many genres today. Personally though I wouldn't go looking for it in rap and hip hop. And as I said before, the least of Mozart is formulaic and, let's be honest, dull.

Bob Doney

There is fantastic new music

Submitted by atheling on Sun, 2009-10-04 18:23.

There is fantastic new music being produced in many genres today

Like what? Instead of prattling on about "boring" Mozart, do give us some examples of postmodern "fantastic new music".