Intifada Spreads to Brussels and Berlin
From the desk of Paul Belien on Mon, 2005-11-07 11:34
Will the whole of Europe be burning by next week? As was expected, the Muslim insurgency did not stop at the French borders. Last night five cars were torched in Berlin. The cars were set alight in five different streets of Moabit, an immigrant neighbourhood of Berlin, and the Tiergarten area, only a few kilometres away from the seat of the German government. The German police are investigating whether the incidents can be linked to the events in France. Meanwhile, the Berlin police announced that they will step up their presence.
In Brussels, too, five cars were destroyed by fire last night. The cars were parked in Sint-Gillis, one of Brussels’ Muslim quarters. Sint-Gillis is the area surrounding Brussels’ Midi Station, where the Eurostar trains from London arrive. It is barely three kilometres from the European Parliament. The Belgian authorities admitted that cars had been destroyed, but is reluctant to give more details because “the Brussels Fire Brigade is providing no further information in order to avoid knowledge of these acts of violence spreading.” Believe it or not, that is the official explanation. According to the Brussels police there were “only a small number of youths on the Brussels streets.” National radio said this morning that everything is calm. People do not believe it.
In France the violence gets worse every night even though the moderate Union of French Islamic Organisations issued a fatwah stating that “it is formally forbidden to any Muslim seeking divine grace and satisfaction to participate in any action that blindly hits private or public property or could constitute an attack on someone's life. Contributing to such exactions is an illicit act.” When will we hear from the ambassadors of Muslim countries?
In France's eleventh consecutive night of lawlessness more than thirty policemen were severely wounded, including two who were taken to hospital with bullet wounds in their legs and neck. For the first time Christian churches (one in Lens in the North of the country and one in Sète in the South) have also been attacked. More than 1,400 cars were set ablaze. Riots have engulfed the entire country and, like the French revolution of 1789, it is contagious: The rebellion is spreading to Muslim areas in neighbouring countries.
Submitted by Matt (not verified) on Tue, 2005-11-08 23:58.
Hmm, that's certainly a bold, unconventional approach. I'm not sure the lawyers will go for it, however. ;-)
Ofcourse lawyers wont go for
Submitted by Brigands on Wed, 2005-11-09 15:16.
Ofcourse lawyers wont go for it. You kidding me ?
If you ship the rioting & criminals out their earnings would be sliced half!
If not the police, who?
Submitted by Matt (not verified) on Tue, 2005-11-08 22:17.
I took Bart's suggestion to be that the army (possibly with tanks) should be deployed to restore order. As I gather from watching French news broadcasts, people are already talking about this option, perhaps because so far the police have failed to bring the disturbances to an end, and it's now been almost two weeks since the beginning of the troubles. You can agree or not, but it's not exactly unheard of for democratic governments to use the army in such circumstance. So, if the curfew and other emergency measures that were just introduced fail to produce the desired results, what would you suggest as an alternative?
You want an alternative
Submitted by Brigands on Tue, 2005-11-08 23:26.
You want an alternative ?
Bring in the Army & CRS. Every riotor arrested is shipped back to his rootcountry together with the remainder of his relatives. Person A is an Arab, then back to the Middle East you go!
Perhaps harsh in our eyes; Doomlike & Naziwise in 'Red' eyes. But it should do the trick.
Riotors riot; they get a chance to quit. If they dont then why not remove the rioting mob all together? Ofcourse our beloved rioting youth cannot leave without the family; as an extra punishment; as a means to compel parents to act.
Submitted by Matt (not verified) on Tue, 2005-11-08 18:46.
Oh, may I add one other point? Israel has in the past bulldozed the homes of suicide bombers, not of rioters. There's a significant difference, wouldn't you agree? But perhaps this distinction is not given much emphasis in European press coverage of the Middle East.
Submitted by Bob Doney on Tue, 2005-11-08 19:01.
Israel has in the past bulldozed the homes of suicide bombers, not of rioters.
From what I've read in (no doubt) distorted books and journals, the bulldozing policy has extended rather wider than just suicide bombers. Anyway, as you say, we're not talking about the West Bank. I just had a problem with what Bart was expecting the deployment of tanks to achieve, especially considering that there appears to be trouble in 300 French towns, and the the neighbourhoods of Paris consist largely of tower blocks of flats.
Submitted by Matt (not verified) on Tue, 2005-11-08 18:35.
Yes, of course, we must get in a dig at the Zionist entity, even when the subject is rioting in France.
Actually, France doesn't seem so very different from the West Bank, if the parameters on which we're comparing them are the extent of Islamic extremism and hatred of the authorities.
Also, given France's lavish funding of Arafat, and its diplomatic support for Hamas and Hezbollah, we could also say that the French government is at least partly to blame for the problems in both places.
Submitted by Bob Doney on Tue, 2005-11-08 18:44.
Yes, of course, we must get in a dig at the Zionist entity
If (if) I had a dig, you seem to be indulging in full-blown archaeology, Matt.
so called "intifada"
Submitted by nemo (not verified) on Tue, 2005-11-08 09:02.
This article is fear mongering at best, fascist propaganda at worst.
Submitted by Bart (not verified) on Tue, 2005-11-08 12:31.
You guys are just so predictable, it's not even funny anymore. Belien reports the facts and what people believe, and it is fear mongering, fascism, hey, you did not call it racisme, what's up with that? Tell that to the people whose cars were burned and property destroyed... Just fear mongering, hu? Well, maybe you can sue Paul for "instigating hate" under the Belgian law. Then we would have seen everything...
In the mean time, I'm still waiting for the tanks and armored vehicles to move in.
Submitted by Bob Doney on Tue, 2005-11-08 12:58.
I'm still waiting for the tanks and armored vehicles to move in.
Yes, I see. What for exactly? Are they going to reduce the blocks of flats to rubble? The Groznyfication of Paris? Is that really going to help?
Submitted by Bart (not verified) on Tue, 2005-11-08 13:20.
No, you are right Bob, silly me, tanks and armored vehicles won't help. Just let the exhausted police become more exhausted. Let the politicians bicker until they are exhausted. Or even better, let the "youth" just loot and rampage until they are exhausted. It will all go away eventually, no? Just like a bad dream. And when we wake up, everything will be well again.
No seriously, tanks and armored vehicles will show the "youth" that the government is serious and willing to raise the stakes. Show them who is boss. Show them that their behavior has consequences.
And about ruble and groznyfication: apparently we don't need the tanks to do this to Paris: we have our "disgruntled youth" for that.
Really Bob, your soft and "reasonable" approach is not going to work with these kids.
So yes, still waiting for the tanks and armored vehicles to move in.
Hard and soft
Submitted by Bob Doney on Tue, 2005-11-08 16:23.
Really Bob, your soft and "reasonable" approach is not going to work with these kids.
Bart, I was just querying how you would see the tanks and armoured vehicles being deployed. I hadn't suggested what my approach would be, so I'm not sure why you think it would be soft. I would have thought that tanks would be completely inappropriate for the sort of urban and suburban problems the French have at the moment. Paris isn't really the same as the West Bank, is it? Or do you think bulldozers should flatten the homes of the perpetrators?
Tanks in urban warfare
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Wed, 2005-11-09 01:40.
In urban warfare, tanks often drive into the depth of a city and reverse. The first lines of the defenders are than caught between the attacking foot-soldiers (from the front) and the tanks combined with dismounting troops (from the back). After that area has been secured this is than repeated on the next lines. This is especially effective when the defenders do not possess effective anti-tank measures, as a tank can smash any normal barricade, and block narrow alleys.
re: tanks in urban warfare
Submitted by Johnny (not verified) on Wed, 2005-11-09 05:38.
All this tank stuff seems an ideal solution for my intestinal problems: driving into the depth, dismounting troops (from the back!), smashing blockades, blocking narrow alleys ... wooooh, I'm starting to feel much better ...
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 23:44.
France is a member of NATO and an ally. What happens there is a concern of all of us. That the violence spreads to other allies is also a concern.
The solution is limited by western beliefs in equality and the separation of church and state/religious freedom. However violence is violence.
The Frence and others should put up their UAVs and monitor/video tape violent areas. Use the video tape as evidence in court. And start putting people away and/or deporting them until they get the idea.
Poverty and discrimination are not an excuse for the criminals/rioters or the politicians. Inaction is weakness.
The politicians need some spine.
Economics and Culture
Submitted by Dwight in IL (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 22:32.
Thanks to Matt and Bart for a good back and forth exchange that actually leads to some serious thought by both participants on the events being considered!
I don't want to sound wishy-washy, but I think you're both right in many ways. The Muslim poor throughout Europe are alienated and angry for many reasons, some of them quite justified. The Europeans brought many over as guest workers, but made little provision for what to do when those workers descendants also needed work.
They then compounded that error with a welfare state which provides everything you need for human life, and nothing which makes life worth living. In so doing they basically created the society of Clockwork Orange, where young men engage in extreme violence not because they need anything but because their lives are so utterly devoid of meaning.
That same meaninglessness is also the most fertile ground you could imagine for the Islamists, and so you see these Islamic radicals spread like wildfire through communities of young men. Couple that with the warrior's creed that is at the heart of Islam, and you have an explosive situation.
The important difference with the riots in LA is that the rioting there was fundamentally secular, with the religious elements largely urging calm. In Europe these riots are a volitile mix of secular and religious causes. As a result, the religious moderates urging calm are attacked and shouted down, not only by irreligious but also by equally religious extremists.
I also agree that any solution will take a long time, far too long to make a difference in the near term. In the near term, rule of law must be imposed by force, or these disturbences will simply grow as both secularly and religiously motivated rioters sense success. But I also fear that the only real solutions: real economic mobility and opportunity and real cultural coexistance are both antithetical to modern Europe.
Concerning Dwight's comment:
Submitted by Johnny (not verified) on Tue, 2005-11-08 01:46.
Concerning Dwight's comment: 'The Europeans brought many over as guest workers, but made little provision for what to do when those workers descendants also needed work.'
Is that what they do in the US? Hell no. If you don't have work for so many months, you're out of luck. That's what should have been done in Europe in stead of having the state play for God.
Most people are lazy, including myself. What do you think happens when you offer people the same kind of life, except they don't have to work for it? Right.
I look at the violence
Submitted by David Kyle (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 21:36.
I look at the violence spreading across Europe with sadness. To see so many unhappy with their lives lashing out. To see those who see an opening to take advantage make things worse by their actions. Each one of the families who has lost an automobile now has that much harder of life. Unable to perhaps get to work, shop or go to school in the way they had before. I am sure there are a huge number of personal stories which will not be seen in the gross coverage of the cities on fire.
Good luck to us all
riots and reforms
Submitted by Matt (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 19:44.
You're quite right, unfortunately: it would take time for social reforms to pay off, and anyway, no one (except possibly Sarkozy) seems to be interested in them. But my point was simply that we should avoid casting these riots in sweeping civilizational terms. Suburban louts in France are not fated to be Islamofascists because their grandparents came from the Arab world any more than contemporary European Christians have to burn witches or conduct inquistitions. The ideological component to the riots is real, and as you say, entrenched. However, if there are policies that have strengthened radical Islam in Europe, then presumably there are also policies that would weaken it.
riots and religion
Submitted by Matt (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 18:58.
Unfortunately, I think you're on to something. It's true that (so far) disgruntled black teenagers in American urban slums haven't turned en masse to extreme ideologies, whereas in the current French riots there does seem to be some kind of feedback between ordinary criminality/thuggishness and radical Islam. However, naive American that I am, I continue to think that giving people decent jobs would solve a lot of the problem. You can say a lot about Clinton, but under his administration, we had almost full employment for the first time in decades, and lo! the violent crime rate dropped dramatically. I think if something similar happened in Europe, you would discover that young Muslims' interest in extreme religion would diminish.
Clinton and crime rates
Submitted by Bart (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 20:57.
Matt, I've heard it before: unemployment leads to crime and vice versa. I don't believe it. Poor and unemployed people are just more likely to become the OBJECT of crime, because the circumstances they live in makes them more vulnerable. Crime is always there, but can spread more easily when the dams of minimal wealth are torne down. But poor or unemployed people are certainly not more inclined to criminal behavior than those who are rich. I think it all depends on the values you have: did you see rioting and violence like this in the 30's in the US? Do you see violence and rioting among the poor immigrants from China and Korea without a job in the US? Blaming it all on poverty and unemployment is just kidding ourselves. By the way, the average age of the "youth" spending their week of autumn holiday burning and rioting is between 10 to 16 year old? You think they are burning down everything around them because they or their parents are without a job? Don't make me laugh.
And we are not talking about regular crimes here like hold ups or theft or burglary. No, a regular straighforward uprising with entire buildings going up in flames AND, more importantly, celebrated, cheered and copied by the crowd who participates in it and who witness it from afar in other French cities.
No, they hate France, they loath the West and combine this with a feeling that everything is owed to them.
Teaching these kids a lesson, which will also instill respect for the West, is only possible by responding very, very hard. I'm afraid much more blood will flow and they have it coming. Sad, but the hard truth. These kids will in turn become the victim of silly and dangerous (because not grounded in reality) "multi cultural" balloney of the European ellite... Ideas have consequences and deadly ideas have dealy consequences. But will people learn?
Finally, about Clinton, if unemployment was so low, certainly it was not because of him or his administration: he happened to be president during an unprecedented and never seen before economic boom world wide, of which he and his administration happened to reap the benefits of. Moreover, the economic downfall had already started the last six months of his presidency. So, no, I do not give ANY credit to Clinton and his administration, except maybe that he did not do too much to harm the economy.
Submitted by tico (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 19:32.
If the French want to create jobs for all those "alienated youth" they will have to drastically reduce the size and generous benefits of their job-destroying welfare state. Is there anyone seriously discussing such action in the French political establishment?And, of course, such action creates risks of its own.
In any case, what took so long to create(cultural and racial animosity and a criminal subculture among the non-white poor) cannot be reversed easily, especially when resurgent radical Islam is added into the mix.
"emeutes" vs. "violences urbaines"?
Submitted by Matt (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 18:20.
Watching the French media, I noticed that they seem to avoid using the word I remember learning as the translation for the English "riot," which is "emeute." (Sorry, can't get the acute accent on my keyboard.) Instead, they keep using the phrase "violences urbaines" ("urban violence," but in the plural, which doesn't work in English). Can some francophone shed some light on this? Does anything turn on the distinction? (My hunch is that they think that an "emeute" is something so nasty that it only happens in bad countries like the USA, therefore it can't be happening in France.)
Matt, after the bombings in
Submitted by Anon (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 18:43.
Matt, after the bombings in London in July of this year, the BBC forbid their journalists to use the words "terror" and "terrorists". Instead they used the word "bombers" so as not to outrage as many people. Just shows the media are in bed with the multiculuralists.
Terrorists and freedom fighters
Submitted by Bob Doney on Mon, 2005-11-07 19:01.
after the bombings in London in July of this year, the BBC forbid their journalists to use the words "terror" and "terrorists".
It's long-standing policy of the Beeb, and doesn't only apply to Islamist terror bombings (oops.... "vigorous protest") in the UK. The Beeb likes to give an impression of non-judgemental impartiality. Hollow laughter.....
not a war or rebellion
Submitted by Matt (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 16:45.
The riots are bad enough as they are. We don't need to blow them out of proportion. So far there has been a total of one death. Mainly, a bunch of unemployed young thugs are burning and stealing stuff. That doesn't mean they want to overthrow the French government and establish an Islamic caliphate.
not for now. But tomrrow
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 17:58.
We must ask what will this people and the many more immigrants who will have joined them in the next years do within twenty years.
It will be a new balkan war.
Their problems will never be solved, the qaedists will radicalize them , their anger and paranoia will gorw, te democracies will be more and more weak, delivering inefficient measures.
Submitted by Bart (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 17:25.
I agree with Matt: no need to blow things out of proportion. There 's absolutely no need for this, because the facts speak for themselves...
And I'm still waiting for the tanks and armored vehicles to move in.
riots and riots
Submitted by Matt (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 17:31.
For what it's worth, I remember the 1992 riots in my native city, Los Angeles. At the time, they seemed pretty upsetting: a number of deaths (I recently read around 50), entire neighborhoods devastated, Korean businesses targeted for destruction, a guy pulled out of his truck and beaten to a pulp. Thirteen years later, the underlying problems of black exclusion and inadequate education haven't been solved, but the US has continued to muddle through without a massive political upheaval. I don't see why something like that shouldn't happen in France as well, which is both reassuring (in that the stakes are limited) and too bad (in that it means nothing significant will change).
Submitted by Bart (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 17:57.
Matt: let's hope you are right. However, I believe that we are dealing with a sociological phenomenon here that is not the same as in LA. Although the blacks who rioted also could be described as having lived in a ghetto culture and "sub culture" of the American society, there was no basic clash of values and civilizations. Ultimately, even the rioters were Americans subscribing to the American dream of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. I believe the sociological fault line is a bit deeper and wider in this case.
But again, let's hope you are right.
This being said, and regardless of the longer term causes and solutions, I'm still waiting for the tanks and armored vehicles, be it rioting in LA or La France.
Submitted by Bob Doney on Mon, 2005-11-07 18:55.
However, I believe that we are dealing with a sociological phenomenon here that is not the same as in LA. Although the blacks who rioted also could be described as having lived in a ghetto culture and "sub culture" of the American society, there was no basic clash of values and civilizations.
That seems to be the theme of many posts on this site. But I expect there were agitators on the streets of LA who definitely did not share the American dream. The "troubles" in Northern Ireland were certainly headed by fanatical Republicans who saw (and see) the end-game as a united, socialist Ireland. Meantime it seems that what the majority of Catholic/Nationalists were prepared to settle for was fair treatment and the chance of a better life.
On the streets of Paris now there are likely to be agents provocateurs aiming for the Caliphate or somesuch. The trick will be to separate the small number of fundamentalists from the much larger number of disaffected youth who need some hope of a decent life. In the long run, that means more jobs - but more jobs by liberalising the economy means more short-term pain in terms of unemployment.
A nice but dangerous conundrum. As the man said "I know how you can get there but, if I were you, I wouldn't start from here.
Over to you, Messieurs Sarkozy, de Villepin and Chirac (he is still President, isn't he?).
Where's the President of the
Submitted by jacky (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 16:11.
Where's the President of the EU? Somebody explain to me how the Eurotrash Press blames the U.S. President for a natural disaster, while this man-made catastrophe grows and grows, and ...
I guess it is Bush who
Submitted by Johnny (not verified) on Tue, 2005-11-08 01:28.
I guess it is Bush who causes all this ...
Submitted by Bart (not verified) on Mon, 2005-11-07 13:26.
For when the tanks and armored vehicles?
I'm sure if the "youth" were white skin heads (also usually from destitute and poorly educated backgrounds) the government would not have been so slow and hesitant to respond or afraid to "anger" them further...
These "youth" need to be taugth a loss, and soon, unfortunately.