“Youths” Kick Man to Death on Crowded Antwerp Bus
From the desk of Paul Belien on Mon, 2006-06-26 21:38
The Belgian state is no longer able to guarantee the security of its citizens. On Saturday afternoon Guido Demoor, a 54-year old Flemish train conductor on his way to work, was kicked to death by six “youths” on a crowded bus near Antwerp’s Central Station. The incident recalls the rush-hour murder ten weeks ago of Joe Van Holsbeeck, 17 years of age, in a crowded Brussels Central Station on 12 April.
Guido Demoor, a father of two, intervened when six “youths” got on bus 23 in Antwerp and began to intimidate passengers. There were some forty people on the bus. Demoor asked the “youths” to calm down, whereupon they turned on him, savagely beating and kicking the man. At the next stop thirty passengers fled the bus. The thugs kept beating Demoor. They then pulled the emergency brake and jumped from the bus leaving their victim to die.
Three Moroccans, two of whom are minors, were arrested today. The website of the Dutch paper De Stentor reports tonight that a fourth suspect, believed to be the ringleader, fled into a shop as the police were poised to arrest him. He managed to escape from the shop when dozens of “youths” came to his rescue. Witnesses had described the culprits as immigrant youths of between 18 and 21 years of age. During the weekend the police had called for witnesses as only four people had come forward. The police offered the witnesses absolute confidentiality and promised not to reveal their identities. “Obviously people fear reprisals,” Gazet van Antwerpen wrote today.
Belgians do not have a constitutional or legal right to bear arms, not even purely defensive arms such as peppersprays. With the police and the government failing to protect law-abiding citizens the latter are, however, totally unprotected. Saturday’s murder has shocked bus drivers and train conductors, but they stress that they are not in the least surprised. Violence on public transport has become a fact of life.
“You see what happens if you intervene,” one of Guido Demoor’s colleagues at Belgian Rail is quoted in the newspaper De Morgen today. “If Guido had not opened his mouth he would still be alive. [...] He was a good man. I would not have dared to do what Guido did. I was beaten up once and since then I have become very careful.”
Another colleague told the newspaper Het Nieuwsblad: “After the Van Holsbeeck murder some whined that no-one had intervened. Guido did intervene and paid with his life.” After the assassination of Joe Van Holsbeeck Belgium’s Cardinal Danneels had said that Joe was a victim of “the indifference in Belgian society” because no-one had come to his rescue when two youths stabbed him to death for not handing over his MP3 player.
Today the Cardinal issued a statement saying: “Guido Demoor acted very bravely. The fact that he paid with his life does not mean that he acted wrongly.” In contemporary Belgium it is heroic for an unarmed adult to tell immigrant youths to calm down.
An Antwerp bus driver told De Morgen: “These youths can be very aggressive. If you say one wrong word they throw themselves on you. I do not dare to say anything. I keep my mouth shut.” Public transport passengers declared: “They call you names in a language you do not understand, shouting and abusing you. What can you do? Who can you call for help? I do not know.”
A train conductor told Het Nieuwsblad: “This incident happened on a bus, but it could also have happened on a train. To be honest, I have been working in Brussels’ Midi Station [where the international trains from Paris and London arrive] for 27 years and I am happy to be still alive. I have been eye to eye with aggressive pickpockets on many occasions. These men have no qualms about hurting people. I am not sure that I would intervene if I witness an incident. I do not want to risk my life.”
The unrest among railroad employees after the Demoor murder is huge. Some want to go on strike to pressure the government to give them protection. The Independent Union of Train Personnel (OVS), however, has asked its members not to strike. “Laying down our work would only harm the passengers and make them the victims of incidents for which they are not to blame,” OVS spokesman Hugo De Rycke said. He stressed, however, that the authorities have to do something. De Rycke explained that bus 23 on which Demoor was murdered is known to be dangerous. “Because [bus 23] is so dangerous Belgian Rail at one point provided taxis to take employees to work [in Antwerp’s Central Station]. However, the taxi service was abolished because it proved too expensive,” he said.
Problems occur not only in major Belgian cities, such as Antwerp and Brussels, but also in provincial towns, such as Sint-Niklaas. Last week bus drivers in Sint-Niklaas refused to drive out in protest against the aggressive behaviour of immigrant youths on the buses. In today’s De Morgen drivers, who have all asked to remain anonymous for fear of reprisals, relate experiences of “buses being demolished while en route” and of “youths harassing girls, who beg the driver to protect them.” One of the drivers said: “If they refuse to buy a ticket I leave it. I do not want to be beaten up for one and a half euros.”
Another driver said: “Last week an old man was beaten up on my bus. The youths were angry because he did not put away his luggage fast enough. They hit him on the eye and threw the luggage on his lap. [...] A bus drive lasts forty minutes. Sometimes they pester and provoke you for a full forty minutes. I remain calm, but some of my colleagues are not able to do so and get into trouble. If I ever get into trouble, I will do as one colleague did recently. He left his vehicle at the bus station and got off, never to return to this job.” Guido Demoor never even got off the bus.
More on this topic:
No Tears for Mama, November 16, 2006
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Tue, 2006-07-25 10:10.
I know this is an old story now, but..
I observed this morning that the ticket inspectors, out of fear, travel in gangs of 6, presumably to ensure their own safety and because of fear of violence. And this was on a tram with 3 or 4 passengers. What struck me is that if they split up, there would be 3 more trams with 2 extra staff to ensure safety, or 6 more trams with 1 extra staff member. They do have radios to call for assistance if required.
The religious right
Submitted by truth serum on Fri, 2006-06-30 15:47.
I am not trying to insult you so much as enlighten you.
You are focusing your attentions on what you believe to be the hypocritical Christian religious right...I am merely trying to get you to refocus your attention to the Islamic religious right. The Christian right is dead for the most part in Europe, but there is still a religious right to contend with...it's just not the one you are used to thinking about.
Here is a quote that maybe you can relate to:
"I wasn't fond of the hypocritical conservative-Christian line about hating the sin and loving the sinner, but it was preferable to the forthright fundamentalist Muslim view that homosexuals merited death.....Crititicizing any stand of Islam in any way felt too much like voicing racial or ethnic prejudice. Indeed, the Dutch (like Western eruopeans generally) viewed Islam less as a religion than as an expression of ethnic identity. While enthusiastically condemning Protestant fundamentalism-which hardly existed anymore in the once serverly Calvinist country-the Dutch couldn't bring themselves to breathe a negative word about Islamic fundamentalism." While Europe Slept
Take from what you will, if anything at all.
You are mistaken to believe that I am defending the Christian religious right because I am a Christian. I am not.
Please make an effort #2
Submitted by marcfrans on Thu, 2006-06-29 19:45.
@ Al Shaheed etc...
I asked you politely ("please...") to make an effort at clarification. That was obviously a waste of effort on my part. You appear unable to focus on 'content' and on specific points presented. Perhaps a reasoned discussion is not your 'cup of tea'. But, I grant you, that you are very promiscuous with gratuitous insults, and you ARE able to focus on spelling errors (always a good indication of a small mind). Perhaps you may not fully comprehend why, but our discussion(s) have come to an end. I hope this is intelligible enough.
I am surprised that you would continue to trade insults with such a character as Al Shaheed-etc... Please, take my advice, and show more self-respect.
Submitted by truth serum on Thu, 2006-06-29 19:14.
'I have nothing against the Religious Right, but there are many hypocrites who believe themselves to be pious Christians'
But you apparently do....as you equate hypocrites and the religious right/Christians as one and the same.
Seemingly to you, no hypocritism is to be found in other faiths?
Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of...only stupidity.
I don't remember saying Muslims are animals, but they themselves certainly do like to equate infidels with animals as they do repeatedly calling Jews-apes and Christians-pigs. All are filthy in their view.
And lastly...Muslims make jihadists...not people like me. They are responsible for their actions...and only them.
Please make an effort (#3)
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Fri, 2006-06-30 06:06.
point taken, but now "truth" serum wants to have a go... SOME Belgians are way too polite...
Let me assume that truth cerum, mohumed al akbar and the lady's friend are all the same person, for their arguments are all the same. Let me, based on that assumption, further define who exactly from personal experience I mean when I say the "religious right". I mean you three, and you three alone. I hope there are no more of you. There are more of us. Don't make us angry. You will be sorry.
Are you the three old hag witches on the hill or what? (a veiled reference to the "Scottish Play")
Do I have to become a monk for you to accept I can be a godverdome Christian if I wanna be?
Lastly, you must bring the Jews into it when you talk about the muslims, mustn't you? Have you forgotten the fact that the Christian and the Jewish faiths are called, collectively Judeo-Christinity for good reason, they share the same book!
"Let your hand be on the man of your right hand, on the son of man whom you made strong for yourself"
antibureaucratic, I'm a
Submitted by pistache on Fri, 2006-06-30 11:50.
I'm a little puzzled by your answers to some people here... Speaking for myself, I'm certainly not "religious right". I'm even an agnostic, LOL!
Don"t you think that, if our arguments "are all the same", it might be because they're... true? If I say the sun is bright, and a lot of other people say so, does that mean we belong to the same "sect" ?
I know there are "more of us", that is, people who are ready to take some time to learn and inform themselves before trying to give lessons to others like you do. If you do not like the reference books given by Truth Serum (good ones, by the way!), begin with themost obvious, the "hallal" ones: Quran & Sira. And see by yourself.
Finally, about the "you must bring the Jews into it when you talk about the muslims, mustn't you?"... Well, as far as I can see, you were the one to write "Some of the ranting about muslims I hear reminds me of Nazis ranting about Jews and that scares me just as much as the Muslim Jihadists." I just wrote that, actually, from a muslim viewpoint, Jews and Christian are almost as bad, and are "in the same boat". So I do not really see why you seem so angry, or what is your point!?
Who's the racist?
Submitted by truth serum on Thu, 2006-06-29 16:49.
Because of your ignorance with regard to the Islamic religion, you have pulled out what is rapidly becoming an old and tattered racism card. Perhaps you do not like the way in which Al Shaheed Al Kuffar has presented her comments, she (?) has none the less presented the truth.
Truth may sometimes be ugly or not what you want to hear, but that does not make it racist.
She rightly called you a dhimmi, however, because you jumped to the defense of Muslims, without any real understanding and repeated politically correct diatribe that you have been fed for years by various institutions. It is for that reason I do not blame you for your response. Many of us have held those same beliefs at one time or another.
I do find it ironic, however, that you tried to insult her with the rhetorical question about being from the religious right. One could consider that racist by using your own standards.
Do yourself a favor and read some books on Islam, such as The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam by Robert Spencer or While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer.
who is the racist indeed?
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Thu, 2006-06-29 17:44.
It wasn't a rhetorical question. I would like to know, honestly, whether she calls herself a Christian. I have nothing against the Religious Right, but there are many hypocrites who believe themselves to be pious Christians, and I honestly would like to know. If she is a heathen, then she has no fear of hell, so where does she get her morals from: such hatred. Why not move to America, as some have suggested, if they are all so violent. They breed so fast it will only be a matter of time before you are outnumbered, after all.
Oh and you thing I am a racist do you? I admit it, I am guilty. So Shoot me. I hate hypocrites, not the "religious right".
And I am so ignorant.
I am not going to argue with someone like you if all you can do is call me names. Shall I call them back at you like a school child, you ignorant person, or are you an animal, as you refer to the muslims as.
I repeat - you are part of the problem, and you are doing the muslims job for them - perhaps you are printing out your comments and taking them to the mosque to convert more non-violent muslims into Jihadists!
stick to the same facts
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Thu, 2006-06-29 18:04.
either the people on the bus were all muslims, or there were 90 percent... which is it? How do you know? Were you there?
the Belgian state
Submitted by George2 on Thu, 2006-06-29 07:02.
The Belgian state is there for politicians who promote irresponsibility. In Belgium responsibility is punished. Those who take up the responsibility to start a business or manage businesses are heavily taxed. Those who opt to do nothing are being paid to do so. The people who take up responsibility become irresponsible capitalists. Those who do not take up responsibility are victims of the irresponsible capitalists. Those who take up responsibility to write about the facts as they are, become outcasts.
The man who took up his responsibility in that bus paid with his life. ‘The youths’ know perfectly well that they are victims and therefore they more equal than others. Even the reddest socialist will know admit that these ‘youths’ have crossed the line of equality. However, many more ‘youths’ remain, harassing, raping, stealing and so one. As long as they don’t think they are too much more equal than others, they can remain victims in peace.
Taking up responsibility in Belgium is poor business. Being a victim pays. Any poor and sane person from the Third World who takes up initiative and his/her responsibility wants to become an irresponsible Belgian. As long as there are responsible people who pay for it.
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Sat, 2006-07-01 00:44.
"sometimes you say it best...
when you say nothing
While the Dragon sleeps, the lion prowls the lands.
I would love to partake of your "enlightenment" (is this the Renaissance?*) but am not sure if I have the time to read your book. If you send it to me, I shall have my secetary read it and summarise it for me. Am greatly looking forward to reading "a throne in Brussels" however, the title alone has grabbethed my attention. Did I mention I am a slow reader?
*"we shall probably now have to translate and widely disseminate the various French texts from that period"
I am not sure why people who think the Muslim holy book is so evil insist on reading it so often - perhaps they don't speak arabic, and perhaps their translation isn't so hot. Perhaps it is evil, and their brains are infected by it, who knows? I don't need to read it to know that it is an ancient text, and not particularly relevant to THIS time and THIS culture and THIS place. It is all, after all, a matter of relativity, General-ly speaking and eSpecial-ly speaking in sPacific terminology:-P
2 years ago
Submitted by rudi on Sun, 2006-07-02 00:29.
Two years ago on the same day, June 24th 2004, 4 jewish students of a Talmudic school in Wilrijk were attacked by more than 10 "courageous" youth from North-african origin (in fact they are also North-africans as all Moroccans when they become Belgian or are born in Belgium have to remain Moroccan by Moroccan law. Even children from a Moroccan father and Belgian mother MUST be Moroccan by decision of Morocco). One of the students was stubbed also very "courageously" in the back with a knife at less than 1 inch from his heart. Fortunately the student survived.
Despite the fact that so many were involved the police NEVER captured any of these candidate murderers, neither was there any denounciation done by people of the immigrant community.
As we learned from newspapers that the today's 6 murderers of Guido Demoor spoke about their act with several of their double compatriots there is no reason to think that the 10 or more of 2004 would not have done the same. One might even think that they were as proud as the murderer of Patrick Mombaerts that they almost killed a Jew.
If this has been the case, and there is no reason why it wouldn't, why did other members of the immigrant community not denounce these candidate murderers. Was it because there were no witnesses available and therefor no danger they would have been identified anyhow, or was it because the victim was only a dhimmi-jew and therefor less a danger to create more anti-moroccan sentiment in the Flemish Antwerp population? Maybe both?
Or did the police not do its utmost to identify them as they did very well this time?
re: 2 years ago
Submitted by George2 on Sun, 2006-07-02 02:13.
North-african youths are more equal to stab, rape, steal etc. However, they are not more equal to kill. Seemingly some of them are a little bit carried away by their more-equalness.
When one of them is killed, they come to the streets and rampage. When one of them kills there is no indignation. Racism? No I am the racist just by writing these lines.
Some 70 years ago, exactly the same kind of behavior was allowed by the state. A state blinded by its own dogmas. And they were so wrong.
Submitted by pistache on Sat, 2006-07-01 11:39.
nothing else to add
The Belgian State
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Thu, 2006-06-29 07:14.
Indeed, the Belgian state seems to do everything possible to actively discourage anyone from starting their own business. Will the Flemish state be any better, when it does not have to economically subsidise the lesser performing half of the "country"? We can only hope!
I wonder if there was a vote in Flanders to secede from the EU how it would go?
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Thu, 2006-06-29 07:23.
In recent events, there have in my mind been two unquestionably brave martyrs. First there was Joe in Brussels who had the guts so say NO, I will not give you my MP3 player. Now this gentleman, who basically took on a gang of youths possibly with the misguided notion that others would see that they have the power to stop violence. The violent are, at the moment, still few, and the anti-violent are growing in numbers (I hope). I pray we do not need a third martyr as a wake up call.
Arms are not a simple solution.
Submitted by Dan on Thu, 2006-06-29 03:41.
It’s not that access to arms solves our problems in America, it is the worldview that mandates easy access to arms without that view and willingness to use force guns would not help. Indeed the younger and stronger or more numerous “youths” would simply take it away and use it on you so while allowing citizens to carry arms makes sense it is not a solution unless you also allow them to use force.
Bus drivers in Belgium should have the option of being armed
Submitted by CaliforniaCCW.org on Thu, 2006-06-29 01:11.
We have started a discussion thread on this story:
Our forum is devoted to reforming gun laws in Europe (and California). If these youths knew that bus drivers might be armed none of these things would happen and bus drivers would feel safe. Concealed weapons are legal in 40 states in the US and it has helped reduce crime. The same could be done in Belgium and other parts of Europe that are facing increasing violence problems.
cowardice or apathy
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Thu, 2006-06-29 00:20.
One thing that really bothers me - if 30 people got off the bus during the middle of this incident, did none of them think it would be a good idea to call the police? If so, that is cowardice, and unjustified by their fear. If not, if they did call the police, perhaps it was fear, and not apathy, that prevented them from doing anything while on the bus.
"One thing that really
Submitted by Al Shaheed Al Kuffar on Thu, 2006-06-29 05:03.
"One thing that really bothers me - if 30 people got off the bus during the middle of this incident, did none of them think it would be a good idea to call the police? If so, that is cowardice, and unjustified by their fear. If not, if they did call the police, perhaps it was fear, and not apathy, that prevented them from doing anything while on the bus."
As I told you, they were all muslims. Get the picture?
@ YOU, anti-dhimmi
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Thu, 2006-06-29 06:18.
My dear fellow, AL SHAHEED AL AKHBAR or whatever you call yourself. My last response was too long so I timed out and lost it. Basically it began along the lines of "sticks and stones may break my bones you can call me Dhimmi and you will not hurt me"
Are you a member of the religious right, by chance, perhaps something like the KKK? You certainly sound like a racist. I try not to judge others, and would hope that they not judge me. One thing I believe is that you are judged by how you judge others. You may now, if you like, consider yourself to have been judged.
If you like my last "outdated" "joke" reference to Nazism, you are gonna love my next one, but believe me it is not intended as a joke.
Please, make an effort....
Submitted by marcfrans on Wed, 2006-06-28 15:26.
...to be clear in your statements. In discussions one should not aim for 'agreement' but rather for clarity (i.e. 'understanding' the different opinions).
@ Al Shaheed Al Kufar
Your first paragraph is unintelligable. "Facts" do not "do". And my comments were not dealing with "details". You claim that I missed "details", without being able to specify such "details".
There is no doubt that many people have different perceptions of morality, certainly between muslims and nonmuslims, and also within these groups as well. Your point that "muslim law legitimises indifference to the killing of unbelievers" does not mean that muslims lack "moral fibre".
I introduced here the term "moral fibre", but your comments seem to be addressed to 'Al Shaheed Al Kufar'. Who is meant by "you" in your text? Please make clear who you are addressing?
Superficially "peace" and "freedom" are often conflicting values. However, it should be clear that in the absence of freedom, there can be no genuine "peace" even if there is no conspicuous 'violence'. The peace of the grave, or the death of the human spirit, cannot be equated with the moral value of "peace".
' Your first paragraph is
Submitted by Al Shaheed Al Kuffar on Thu, 2006-06-29 05:18.
' Your first paragraph is unintelligable.(sic) "Facts" do not "do". '
If my first paragraph is "unintelligable"(sic) why do you bother to "correct" it? Maybe you should expand on the subject of "correcting" things that are unintelligible. I take it for certain that you also talk to birds and a have fair knowledge of translating Linear A.
BTW, when I was referring to "morality" I was referring to morality as carried by the responsibilty of the one being that has self-consciousness, not to the herd animal that prays 5 times a day to an imagined totally deranged deity that just does the thinking for them in that all authoritive text, the Qu'ran.
Do you want some cheese with your whine, dhimmy?
@ you again, mohumed al akhbar
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Thu, 2006-06-29 06:27.
First they came for the Muslims, and I said nothing because one of them had raped my sister and 6 of them had slaughtered a man on a bus. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I said nothing for I was not in a union. Then they came for the homosexuals. Then they came for the dhimmis, for they dared question their views. Predictably, they came next for the Jews. By the time they came for the Christians, they went quietly too. Then they came for you!!! My telephone number if you want to call it is 666 6666. That's 03 for Antwerp. Would you like my address too? I am sure you would like to beat me up when you finish with all the Muslims. You will not find ME to be a pacifist or a martyr I can assure you, so I suspect you will not come (coward!). You are, like some poets consider life to be, "full of sound and fury yet signifying NOTHING" (from the Scottish play whose name cannot be uttered).
The new Europe to me is a Dragon, and it is starting to smoke at the mouth, and flick its barbed tail, and soon the fire will issue forth. I am not afraid. I fear for you anti-dhimmi, because there will be no one to cry out for you when they come for you on their four horses.
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Wed, 2006-06-28 23:57.
Sorry marcfrans, re-reading the chain of comments I can see why you would want to be sure I was addressing 'Al Shaheed Al Kufar'. You are correct, I was.
Regarding "peace and freedom" you are also correct, also PEACE and PACIFISM are not the same thing (a common mistake), which is why I no longer refer to myself as a pacifist. I desire peace, but I am prepared to defend myself and fight for it if necessary.
Pacifists are often cowards hiding under disguises like Political Correctness, (possibly they are moral relativists, if I understand the term correctly now) and are usually the first to switch sides when the crunch comes.
I think it was said on this website only recently that it is only a matter of time until the political opportunists start declaring their conversion to Islam, I am counting the seconds...
Submitted by F_V on Wed, 2006-06-28 10:46.
When a bunch of Arabs kick a man to death, the Belgian press talks about "youths" . I had to listen to several news bulletins before it was actually spelled out that we were talking about (surprise, surprise) Arabs (or better: new belgians as they prefer to call them). Of course the 'press' does this to prevent a certain part of our 'community' to be stigmatised... "Those poor Arab kids couldn't help it, they have to live in miserable conditions and don't get any opportunities in life...." This kind of crap we'll be able to read for the coming weeks in the 'quality press'.
The press only makes one exception, when something happens that is caused by somebody with right-wing sympathies, it only takes them 30minutes to print an extra edition with his home phone number, adress of his whole family....
I can't wait untill the next elections, I hope a lot of people will do the "right" thing!!
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Wed, 2006-06-28 03:50.
This is from Auden, written in 1948. Remember there are two lies.
"The romantic lie in the brain
Of the sensual man-in-the-street
And the lie of Authority
Whose buildings grope the sky:
There is no such thing as the State
And no one exists alone;
Hunger allows no choice
To the citizen or the police;
We must love one another or die."
Whether it's indifference or
Submitted by Kathy on Wed, 2006-06-28 00:29.
Whether it's indifference or fear/cowardice, is a moot point. People are naturally ashamed of standing by while others are attacked. (This is the demon still lurking at the door from the Holocaust.) They manage by turning off their human sensibilities like a light switch. That's indifference. So, where there's one, there's the other.
Do you ever lose indifference entirely once you choose it? If something like this happens again, is any fear necessary to call forth the indifference? Will courage be any easier to choose?
We have to judge the morality by figuring just how risky it would have been to help this brave man. I haven't enough information in this case to judge that.
But I do know that every time you look the other way, it gets easier and easier. Then to rationalize, you decide that you are doing the right thing, that you are just "peaceful" and "non-violent" -- not a Cain who asks "Am I my brother's keeper?"
Sort of the way Europe rationalizes never taking action to prevent genocide or deal with a threat and views America as "violent" for doing so.
The comment mentioning that this has happened in New York is significant. Yes, in NYC -- New England, that fragment of Europe in the New World. In densely populated areas, political correctness rules and erodes the backbone. People like this never do anything without looking first to see what others around them are doing. So, who's going to be the first to step forward and do something? No one!
Hicks from the sticks aren't plagued by such habits. If they see something that needs to be done, they do it. So, that indifference to the old lady would NEVER happen elsewhere in America. Indeed, look at the heroism of the commonfolk on 9/11 -- firefighters, iron workers, police = people who can't afford to live in NYC. No lack of courage among them.
So, while this incident says nothing about the individuals, if it is a trend, it says something alarming about the society.
You got me pegged, Kathy.
Submitted by G-Dub on Wed, 2006-06-28 00:49.
"Hicks from the sticks aren't plagued by such habits. If they see something that needs to be done, they do it."
I live in Rock Island, Illinois, on the banks of the Mississippi.
Submitted by Al Shaheed Al Kuffar on Tue, 2006-06-27 22:11.
Well, you have to take my word for it, but I took this bus for almost a year when my mother was in hospital. This piece of track (between Carnotstraat and Kerkstraat) is 100% populated by muslims. Each time, when I was going through that piece of track the bus was populated by +90% muslims. So it is almost certain that no more than something like 5 non muslim (and certainly unarmed) people were present at the time of the beating. It suffices to contact somebody living in Antwerp to confirm my statements. This should explain why "nobody" reacted, and why they were eager to get off the bus at the next stop, not wanting to be involved in the murder.
As a small reminder, this event happened +- 100m from where, a few years ago, an elderly non muslim man got harassed to the point he killed an imam at point blank. I remember this created days of rioting (instigated by the Arab European Union leader Abu Jaja). Do you think there is going to be rioting now? All what is going to happen is that, under a heavy police escort, some flowers will be deposited at the place the murder took place.
Submitted by marcfrans on Tue, 2006-06-27 23:09.
@ Al Shaheed etc...
If the facts were - a big "if" - as you describe them, then you are not really providing a "rectification". My comments about "lack of moral fibre" would then equally apply to those "+90% muslems and 5 nonmuslims on the bus". From a moral standpunt, it is totally irrelevant whether the 'Belgian' people on the bus were muslims or not. If they did 'nothing' they lacked moral fibre.
This is no different from the Arab League's 'silence' on the recent genocides in southern and western Sudan or the Belgian government's 'silence' on the numerous mass graves of Saddam. They prefer to focus on genuine 'bagatelles' like shouting (preferably in unison) "Abu Ghraib". All hypocrites and "depositers of flowers", lacking moral fibre.
>If the facts were - a big
Submitted by Al Shaheed Al Kuffar on Wed, 2006-06-28 06:28.
>If the facts were - a big "if" - as you describe them, then you are not really providing a >"rectification"
But the disturbing fact is, they do.
You seem to miss quite a few details, let's see:
>My comments about "lack of moral fibre" would then equally apply to those "+90% muslems and 5 >nonmuslims on the bus". From a moral standpunt, it is totally irrelevant whether the 'Belgian' >people on the bus were muslims or not. If they did 'nothing' they lacked moral fibre.
The fact is that muslim law provides for disgregarding democratic laws against a "mythical"
reign of a -so called- Allah.
This muslim law provides for the legimacy of being indifferent to the killing of an unbeliever.
What makes you believe there is something like a 'moral fibre' in Islam?
Islamic "moral fibre"
Submitted by antibureaucratic on Wed, 2006-06-28 08:27.
I am not particularly religious however I prefer the term agnostic to atheist. I respect everyone's right to believe whatever they want just so long as they don't try to shove it down my throat.
Regardless of what fundamentalist moslems interpret their holy books to mean it is unfair to assume that all muslims live by the philosophies of the most fanatical jihadists. Generalising and saying that no muslims have any moral fibre to me amounts to a form of racism which will certainly not help the situation. What would you like to see: genocide on the muslims here?
I once thought that multiculturalism was a good thing, but I have become convinced that assimilation is a better idea - assuming it still allows individuals to follow whatever religions they choose.
Not all christians are peace lovers, and some fundamentalist christians can be very violent too, but I do not condemn all christians for this.
Some of the ranting about muslims I hear reminds me of Nazis ranting about Jews and that scares me just as much as the Muslim Jihadists.
You are doing the Muslim extremist's job for them and justifying their hatred of Christianity when you make these generalisations. I would have to assume you are not a Christian by the way you speak, and it is for people like you that I believe the Christian religion was invented ie some people need to be taught good from evil and concepts like love your neighbour and god is love.
@antibureaucratic (a better nym should be anti-dhimmi)
Submitted by Al Shaheed Al Kuffar on Thu, 2006-06-29 05:01.
I certainly would love to continue our discussion about love, and god is log and love thy neighbour, but we'll have to delay this discussion until you know a little bit more about your "loving" neighbour. You know, the one that will kill you and your eldest sons and sell your females as slaves. You know, the one that calls you an "Infidel", that permits himself to rape your daughter because se wears make-up an has a way too short skirt? You know, the one that kills his own sister because she "dishonered" her family by not marrying a 30+ year older "uncle"?
How are you going to react to this "friendly" neighbour?
You dhimmies are soooo funny!
BTW: your (totally failed) joke about using a very worn out reference to nazi germany is extremely funny and ironical (my ironymeter just took a good stroke),
When I think of collaborators, like the ones that deliberately sympathysed with the Oppressor, I think just the same way of you. Any of your actions facilitates the Sarracens to invade the western world.
what fundamentalist moslems interpret their holy books...
Submitted by pistache on Wed, 2006-06-28 10:55.
what fundamentalist moslems interpret their holy books is actually closer to what the book says than any "moderate" muslim can do. Not the same scale at all as what any "fundamentalist christian" could find! It's either disinformation or inept relativism.
The germ of violence is IN the quran, IN the Sunnah, IN the hadiths and Sïra ( = holy biography of Muhammad) - and very clear too in its hate of Jews and Christians, of "Infidels". And "Al Shaheed al Kuffar" is very right in saying that the muslim law "provides for the legimacy of being indifferent to the killing of an unbeliever.".
Why Belgians turn their back to a fight
Submitted by Avondlander on Tue, 2006-06-27 16:02.
Some twenty years ago I got involved in a kind of a fight...
I was a third year medical student at that time, so it was 3 a.m. and I was still studiying microbiology for an exam the next day. Through the window I see some people throwing over my motorbike. Very naively I go outside to ask them (2 Belgians) what happens and five seconds later all their joined agression is turned towards me. They are apparently drunk. At a certain moment one of the guys tries to hit my head with a heavy stone, telling his friend he's going to kill me. In an effort I can escape the blow, free myself and flee into my house. To late to shut the frontdoor. They follow me into the house so I run to a room where I am so lucky to have a gun. My girlfriend wakes up in the room next to us... The guys are not to impressed by the gun (they see it is not my intention to shoot them) and one of them grabs the barrel and tries to pull it out of my hands while his compagnon tries to strangle me. They go on shouting they will kill everyone in the house, burn it down and so on. Their agressivity lets me fear the worst for my girlfriend and myself if I loose control of the gun. No choice...:One guy seriously wounded (God thanks he survives!) and the other one flees (to get reinforcement from other thugs!).
In court the prosecutor asks my aqcuital because of legal selfdefence. However the judge condemns me to three months suspended. Motivation?
I was the only one who was completely sober and I had the highest education, so I should have controlled the situation.
Submitted by markpetens on Tue, 2006-06-27 16:21.
If there is a period in Belgian history when people where in real fear it were the 1980s, when various gruesome events happenened. Somehow the lessons from those years are all but forgotten, but I am somewhat relieved to see the police apprehend these youths pretty quick this time.
Submitted by flynn on Tue, 2006-06-27 12:54.
Shame on all Belgians who continue to have indifference at the turmoil taking place in their country. Get angry, get pissed and get rid of those deadbeat elitists you have in power in Brussels. Go back in history 60 odd years and the same appeasement that exists today existed then and look how you stood by with the rest of Europe while millions of Jews were killed.
You only have yourselves to blame as the situation in Belgium is getting worse every day. Bury your heads in the sand, shrug your shoulders and keep saying 'there is nothing that I can do'. If you cannot do anything to change the apathy and the immigrant's violence, then BELGIUM IS NOT A DEMOCRACY.
How many potential rape victims could be saved if at the very least pepper spray were allowed. Good God, how pathetic is that!!! What a laughable country that now is Belgium.
@G-Dub - a bit about indifference
Submitted by Esther on Tue, 2006-06-27 09:02.
Maybe I'm somewhat spoiled since my government still recognized my God-given right to defend myself. I don't carry a gun, most Americans don't, but I can assure you, a bus full of Americans would not stand by and let this happen.
There are enough places in the US where indifference rules, even when there is no direct violence involved.
A person I know died in NY when she slipped in the snow. An old woman, waiting for hours in the snow, on a busy road, with many, many people passing by. NOBODY stopped to help. And it wasn't because of the draconian gun laws, it was because of the fear that something bad would happen to them.
You can convince yourself that if a gang would be going crazy on a bus in the US, somebody would stand up, and maybe somebody would, but I think reality shows otherwise.
In this case - somebody did stand up, and he was killed for it. You don't specifically need weapons to deal with six young men. You need many more people who would have stood up and intervened. And for that, you need to fight fear and indifference.
Back @ Esther : The difference between indifference and fear
Submitted by G-Dub on Tue, 2006-06-27 14:48.
I can't imagine the people on that bus were indifferent. They were afraid. Belgium's Cardinal Daneels can say what he wants in regards to these types of situations, but he is simply wrong. Just read what the other people said in the article. No one is indifferent, they are all afraid.
Indifference did kill the old woman you mentioned in New York. How would people be afraid something bad would happen to them by helping her? That doesn't make sense to me. The people who ignored here were definately indifferent, selfish too, in my opinion, but I'm not sure where fear comes in. I condemn indifference in harsher tones than I do fear, but it was fear, not indifference that led to the death of Guido Demoor, and hence my comments.
"You can convince yourself that if a gang would be going crazy on a bus in the US, somebody would stand up, and maybe somebody would, but I think reality shows otherwise."
I don't need to convince myself of anything here, Esther. I've decided what kind of world I will live in, and what kind I won't live in. After flight 93 crashed near Shanksville, Pennsylvania on Sept. 11, 2001 many Americans realized that they may be called upon to act out or suffer the consequences. I don't believe anyone hasn't asked themselves what they would have done in that situation. The answer lives on in their hearts.
I don't think an group of "immigrant youths" could get away with what they did in Belgium in the U.S.
When gangs in the US terrorize neighborhoods, neighbors often get together and work to drive them away. There are groups like the Guardian Angels, made up of private citizens who patrol dangerous neighborhoods. In the U.S., fear is still present, but the citizens have the right, and usually the will to stand up against it.
It seems Europeans are losing both of these things.
Submitted by Esther on Tue, 2006-06-27 15:14.
Guardian Angels only came around when people have had enough. "Having enough" means that you were already in a situation where it wasn't safe to go outside. They don't exist everywhere and there are still neighborhoods people won't enter if they also want to come out in one piece.
As for the difference between fear and indifference - ever had somebody pretend they're helpless and then attack you? Steal your wallet? How do you know the old lady lying in the snow and begging for help is not part of a gang? What if you've already been tricked once? Twice? How many times will you stop to help people and get beat up before you decide it's better to leave people to shout for help?
If you live in NY you know to stay street smart and keep indifferent, but that indifference comes directly from fear.
But if you already bring it up. I prefer somebody not act out of fear then out of indifference.
"Road rage" is a phrase coined in the US, btw. People have died over it, and not because of lack of pepper spray.
How many people on the USA's major highways would do anything if somebody cuts them off? or acts weird on the road? do you think they'll dare or be afraid of ending up shot?
I'm not saying people should be prevented from carrying arms. I just don't think the world is that black and white and I certainly don't think guns are a magic solution. They'll just transfer you to a different plane of reality.
Flight 93, btw, is a good example - the people who acted did not have weapons. They just had the ability to get over the fear, maybe because they knew they were doomed. There were other flights where the people did not stand up and act.
I do see what you're saying, I just don't think that it is so clear cut that in the US people will stand up and act (because they have guns) and in Europe they won't. Sometimes it depends on the circumstances.
I think you're coming around, Esther
Submitted by G-Dub on Tue, 2006-06-27 16:23.
Only a couple of things. Fear won't breed indifference, it will only cause you to feign indifference. Indifference is a separate and greater evil than just fear.
As for this part:
"ever had somebody pretend they're helpless and then attack you? Steal your wallet? How do you know the old lady lying in the snow and begging for help is not part of a gang?"
No I haven't. I have never even considered it. I suppose it's possible, but if you live your life with that kind of fear, you may as well move to Belgium. If you are truly afaid of this scenario, then simply call the authorities and let them help the old woman. Failure even to do this would indicate pure indifference, not fear.
As for this:
"Road rage" is a phrase coined in the US, btw. People have died over it, and not because of lack of pepper spray.
How many people on the USA's major highways would do anything if somebody cuts them off? or acts weird on the road? do you think they'll dare or be afraid of ending up shot?"
Why would anyone "dare" to do anything? It's just a rude driver, not someone attacking you, call 'em a jackass to yourself and get on with your life. It's such a trivial thing as to not matter at all.
I agree with you that the world isn't black and white, but the incident on the bus was. The "immigrant youths" were clearly evil. The Belgians that sat there and watched were evil and pathetic.
I don't carry a gun, and most people don't, but the knowledge that, if things get out of hand, people will start doing so helps to keep things from getting out of hand. I'll take that plane of reality over what's transpiring in Europe anyday.
People in the U.S. won't stand up and act simply because they have guns. We do it because we can. Will 100% of Americans stand up for themselves all the time? No, but enough of us will that we don't get kicked to death on full buses.
Already "come around"
Submitted by marcfrans on Tue, 2006-06-27 17:52.
I broadly agree with you, but not entirely. Those 'immigrant youth on that bus' were clearly "evil", but the fearful (and/or indifferent) 'Belgians on the bus' were not exactly "evil". They simply lacked what used to be called "moral fibre".
A few weeks ago, an extreme moral-relativist on this website claimed that one can have "ethics" without "faith". This led to an extended further discussion on moral relativism on the Dutch part of the website. This incident illustrates again the fallacy of the moral relativism that permeates the Belgian educational system and media today. 'Ethics-without-faith' is wishful thinking or empty words. One can only test this in the real world when things get 'difficult', i.e. when faced with clear moral dilemmas. Let's just say that the belgians-on-the-bus failed the real-world test. They lacked "faith" (in the purpose of morality) and their "ethics" was shown to be 'empty words'. It doesn't exactly make them "evil" (yet). Rather, it shows them to be "weak", on the road to 'dhimmitude'.
Fight the indifference and the fear
Submitted by spraynasal on Tue, 2006-06-27 12:24.
Thanks Esther for this excellent comment on these very sad news.
There is little but dismay and sadness when we realize that this murder would have been avoided, had some passengers taken the step to interfere and prevent the youths to beat him. Fear has won here. Let's hope for an awakening!
Even if this has nothing to with this murder in Antwerp, you may find here evidence that deeply rooted indifference and corruption may, also in America, lead an innocent man to be condemned to death and denied support and justice - in the view of the whole world.
All planned by the designers of the New Worldorder
Submitted by GHL on Tue, 2006-06-27 10:44.
This is the New World Order advancing. They think we need some conflict here in Europe. After two worldwars they put on stage it has been for a long time to calm here. Therefore they planned to import huge numbers of muslims to bring some chaos to Europe by terrorizing and frightening its inhabitants. These are conflicts those who designed the New World Order deliberately pushed us in.
“The philosophy which has dominated the Western world since the mid 19th century can be reduced to one tenet—ultimate peace comes only through conflict… It proposes that a clash between ideologies (thesis and antithesis) is a normal historical phenomenon which always results in compromise (synthesis) that advances civilization to a higher level of order. “Conflict, in other words, is good, and peace is not necessarily desirable (or profitable).”
This is a worldwide war against Christians and their societies. http://www.savethemales.ca/000305.html
Politicians need replacing.
Submitted by panamboy on Tue, 2006-06-27 05:52.
To read about this useless murder by godless youths seems so unbelievable. but still it happened. I am a American and I can begin to understand, "no" maybe comprehend what citizens of your country is up against. It is slowly happening in this county. We the citizens have over a period of time allowed this to become reality. We the citizens have always had the power to keep this kind of lawlessness and violence from roaming our streets, which has infested many EU countries, or should I say States. We over this period of change have not been involved in voting or better aware of what we are voting for. We seem to be giving up our nationalistic writes for our own personal concerns. The power to make change is in each of us, when united in a common cause. People put politicians in office. At least we still due in my country. Time is coming when this may or may not be. Some EU Countries are working very hard at not being involved. You, We, still have a choice and we still have free will, are giving it away. Freedom from ????????? comes with a price, when we no longer are willing to pay the price we lose our Freedom. Once gone or taken away, what then is the price to get them back?
Submitted by markpetens on Tue, 2006-06-27 04:00.
I think the right word here is not cowardness but apathy. If a government is trying for so many years to take away any personal responsibility of its citizens, no wonder they will eventually feel cold and detached to other members of society. Cowardness would mean that citizens do not want to take up that individual responsibility again by political means. I do not see that yet happening overall in Belgium, but there is certainly a section of the population that is totally oblivious to current societal problems.
Submitted by Lemuel Calhoon on Tue, 2006-06-27 02:47.
40 against 6 is not "unarmed" they had the numbers to have stompped these 6 pieces of Muslim garbage into 6 little wet spots on the pavement.
Europe deserves EXACTLY what it is going to get.
If you have the wit to be sickened by what has happened here then get out while you still can.
@ Lemuel Calhoon - Spain is not Europe
Submitted by vicenc on Wed, 2006-06-28 10:22.
I am a Spaniard. I hate it to be packed into one category with the miserable Belgian sods who fled the bus. "Europe" I don't know what it is, but if these sick cowards are "Europe", then Spain is not. Let them Barbary pirates come, we respond in kind!
Submitted by G-Dub on Wed, 2006-06-28 15:06.
I'm glad to hear you say that, but in the U.S. it is widely perceived that Spain capitulated in the elections after the Madrid bombings.
It is my hope that this is a mistaken perception, but if there's any truth to it, then I'm afraid that Spain may lie closer to the heart of Europe than you wish.
I'm no expert on the subject, so I would welcome your opinion as a Spaniard. If I have a mistaken notion of the events following Madrid, I would be happy to be corrected.
Most people don't want to take the risk
Submitted by A.N. on Tue, 2006-06-27 00:01.
When did so many Belgians became cowards?
When an anti-racism law was enforced.
Ever since the strict anti-racism laws are vigourously enforced in Belgium, no-one wants to act against these muslim youths. They fear being subpoenaed. I can tell from personal experience.
This is unreal!
Submitted by G-Dub on Mon, 2006-06-26 23:25.
I absolutely cannot believe what I just read.
To the people on that bus who stood by and did nothing: You sicken me! How dare you stand by and watch an innocent man beaten to death for intervening on your own behalf. You deserve to live in fear and terror for the rest of your miserable, cowardly lives!
It was not "immigrant youths" that attacked Mr. Demoor, it was you Overlords! They are your betters and you run away in fear of them.
When did so many Belgians become cowards?
Maybe I'm somewhat spoiled since my government still recognized my God-given right to defend myself. I don't carry a gun, most Americans don't, but I can assure you, a bus full of Americans would not stand by and let this happen.
If Belgium still has a soul, now would be a good time to search it.