Bye Bye Britain

A quote from Roy Liddle in The Spectator, 11 November 2006

Apparently almost a million British citizens have left the country since 2000, to live somewhere else. Last year, according to the Office for National Statistics, 380,000 people left Britain, of whom about 200,000 were British citizens. At the same time, though, 565,000 immigrants arrived in Britain, the overwhelming majority from […] [Muslim] Pakistan and Bangladesh.

These facts were reported as if they were entirely unrelated. Nobody dared to venture that there was perhaps a very direct and causal relationship […] Even for our most free-thinking and dependable think-tank, Civitas, this was a bridge too far. Its spokesman, Robert Whelan, ventured that perhaps the parlous state of the [national] health service [NHS] was to blame for the exodus. You know, I suspect the majority of those who left had next to no contact with the NHS; they are, in the main, pre-middle-aged and healthy. No, it seems patently clear to me that an important reason […] that so many Brits are getting the hell out is that they think there are too many non-European foreigners here […]

Immigration is changing our life in all kinds of way

in reply to Snorri Godhi:

" I can think of better reasons to leave Britain. "
" one can find better housing pretty much in any other place on Earth. "

This is partly due to immigration. Immigration inevitably pushes up the cost of housing, especially if you are looking to live in a European environment.

" the English character "

If Britain was less overcrowded and still had a future, its inhabitants would be in a better mood and have a better character.


Much of Europe is already a ghost town, not from the Immigrant Invasions, but from leftist control over the population. The US faces the same danger. Socialism is the language in Europe. It is spoken by those in authority and followed by the person on the street, at least by the publically expressed views. It may not be called that. It may be called multi-culturalism or some other UN type euphenism, but it is socialism. Independent voices dare not express their real views or innermost thoughts in public, else they face ostricism and criminal charges, being branded as racist or worse. Some who have the courage to speak publically against socialist insanity are even known to be harrsassed by the state authorities and threatened with prosecution for myriad offenses which may not even be connected to their speech. You might be able to name some of these people of courage.

The same reverse McCarthyism is well under way in the US, also. They have killed free speech and instituted limited free speech. Now, it is just a matter of moving the limits to the places they choose. I know you already are aware that the free press and media will not come to the individuals aid. That is because the free press has already adopted the limitation of individual freedom in favor of politically acceptable speech as their guidelines. This latter is not only in the US, but is already the world standard. The American press has already become the UN press.

Fox tip, atheling

I am stuck with nothing but world leftist media and I wish I could get Fox. Not that it is perfect, except in comparison.

I have read something that will make me watch them closer, however. I'll try to find the article and let you know. I don't want to put a rumour into public that may be detrimental and of no significance.

Saharian- Be careful what you wish for

"Muslims detonate a nuclear bomb on US soil -- and believe me, that day is drawing near -- don't call us, we'll call you."
If the islamic nations REALLY want islam wiped from the face of the earth then they will allow a nuclear bomb to go off on US soil (most likely Washington D.C.). If so CODE89 goes into operation automatically ( the government of the U.S. is dead and the military takes over). NORAD signals all (18) trident subs, cordinates are inputed into the missiles. A confirmation call is sent and the missiles are launched. Starting with the west coast of Africa, Morocco on south and continuing across Africa, to the middle east. Eastward Indonesia and Moslem parts of various eastern nations and our friend in North Korea all will be hit. What will you face? 24 D5 missiles x 18 subs, 8 to 10 MIRV 300 or 475 kiloton W88 thermo nuclear hydrogen bombs. Do the math ( I'll do it for you 3456 to 4320 warheads). One 475 kiloton bomb is enough to vaporize Tehran - 100% casualties. Then all those people subjugated by islam for over a 1000 years will rise up and take their revenge. In Europe and USA after the inital slaughter of the moslems, those remaining will convert to anything but islam, in 6 mos. after D.C. is destroyed 95 to 99% of all moslems on the face of the earth will be either dead or converted, those remaining on islands in Indonesia or mountains of Pakistan will be hunted down and elliminated. In no more than 3 years after the first missile is launched, islam will be a footnote in a history book. Be careful what you wish for.

To Saharian

I must admit, I thought you were a troll. Much of what you say tonight makes sense. I would disagree semantically with your use of the term totalitarian, but a top down imposed socialism is little different. There is little doubt that the US has that. I think that is the implication of your term "soft totalitarianism".

There is a disconnect between the leadership of the US and the people who are the general public. The general public now accepts and espouses ideas that would have been foreign to their acceptance and way of life without it having been pushed by leaders in politics, media, education, religion and corporate america. Media and education are the primary venues by which those views are presented in ways which change attitudes within a generation or two.

You don't state how you view your own situation. I think you have less say in the matter than the general public of America. There are many more Americans who think than you may realize. You just may not agree with their thinking. Maybe you should. Don't give yourself a pat on the back because you are an European and think you have a monopoly on free thought. The European society is much more conformist and controlled than in the US. In America, the kids are being taught NOT to think, while Europeans are being taught WHAT to think. Both avenues are geared to state control.

Unfortunately, what is happening in America is that people are being taught to stay out of the fray and not exercise their individuality. Europe is being taught to follow the mandates of officials blindly and are choosing to do so. It is a loss for the individual in each case and brings all closer to the true utopian totalitarianism.

@Flanders Fields

"Don't give yourself a pat on the back because you are an European and think you have a monopoly on free thought"

I'll say. Europe is finished. So much for "free thought". At the rate it's going, the end of century will see Europe as a ghost continent, occupied by its "immigrants". The indigenous Euros will all be dead and gone. In the immortal words of Mark Steyn: "By the end of the century, German will be spoken only at Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels and Goehring's Monday night poker game in hell."

SMUG? More like Worried Sick by non-Dem Americans - Part I

Dear Saharian:

You stated, "I'm not sure why the Americans here are so smug in their Europhobic attitudes."

Many of us Americans do not fear Europe, we FEAR FOR EUROPE.

In being FEARFUL FOR EUROPE, our concerns posted here and elsewhere should demonstrate that at least some of us are not complacent, i.e. smug. Socialism has made Europe weak. It is a house of cards ready to fall. The not so subtle Islamic invasion and demographics will be the death knell of Western Europe and yet it is "evil America" that Europeans blame.

SMUG? More like Worried Sick by non-Dem Americans - Part II

Dear Saharian (con't):

As to a "totalitarian system", we are more free than Europe in many ways. I have not felt any less free with Bush in office. Now with the Dems in office, perhaps, via their socialism and appeasement, I soon may be less free.

Any person who would claim that "US political system and security apparatus increasingly resemble those of the USSR" has been reading to much fiction or the lies of leftist, socialists, and appeasers. Between the U.S. and U.S.S.R., Europe is closer to becoming more like the U.S.S.R. than America is. Being so "totalitarian" as we are, NO WONDER many of us are BEGGING our government to build a WALL to KEEP US IN so that we can't flee to all the "great" free places of the world.

Communism, Socialism, Fascism, Islamism all have one thing in common and that they are "statist"; hence easily one small step from being totalitarian once they gain control.

It was the capitalism of Adam Smith, not socialism, that made American great; however, that too is being eroded away by the myth that government is the answer to everything. We are slowly going down the road of socialism in the direction of Europe and paying a price for it. The price will become ever increasingly burdonsome. Thomas Jefferson, once said that the least government is the best government. I wish we and the world would understand that and return to that way of thinking and living. A government big enough to give you everything is big enough to take everything away.

I am glad to hear of the rise of nationalism in Europe Saharian; however, that runs contrary to the very essence of the European Union. I wish you success.

I don't know why anyone

I don't know why anyone bothers to answer Saharian. His assertions are so absurd that he deserves a special place in the Hall of Idiotic Statements along with Rosie O'Donnell.

Not worth the powder.


...Dude, prior to the election, I would have disagreed with these comments you just made...but now, Sadly, I must say, there is probably a certain degree of validity to your thoughts....

It's still better over there...

 If you are thinking about moving to US, think again. It's still better over there. Here are just three of many reasons:

(1) Oppresive Legal System (Guilty until proven Guilty). We have more than 2 million in prison system. That is ten (10) times the incarceration rate than most other countries, including China and EU. Many are innocent. You can get some idea on false charges at

(2) You want to pay $10,000 for health insurance or go bankrupt after your first accident. Those are your only choices.

(3) Civil Liberty in Grave Danger. Our latest Military Commisions Act of 2006 (aka Torture Act) has effectively killed our Bill of Rights. Any citizen (not to mention foreigners) can be labeled an "enemy cambatant," and thrown in jail or concentration camp (we already have capacity to hold and process millions of people).

Any citizen (not to mention

Any citizen (not to mention foreigners) can be labeled an "enemy cambatant," and thrown in jail

You'll be able to discuss that with John Walker Lindh when you visit.................he did get off lightly..............must be that passport

Krisof buy your ticket

The European ideal you seem to yearn for is only a plane ticket and innumerable bureaucratic hassles away. Come express your opinions and the force of the state can and sometimes does come down on you. The differences you describe primarily come from the American grassroots, which still to some degree believes in self reliance and free market. It is not perfect, but not as bad as you try to portray it.

The incarceration rate is high, and too high, for numerous reasons. Part of the reason is the numerous laws passed by the leftists during the 70's, which made it possible to be charged for damn near any reason. They also extended the administrative government to have power that made it oppressive on people in their everyday life. Other than that, there are a lot of bad asses amoung the criminals in the US. Much fewer than Europe, although that is changing.

The laws you cite that provide the means for the government to do it's primary job, protect the US citizens might be objectionable if useage extended to a time when there was not active and duplitious danger from terrorists. The governments of many places in Europe have the same attitude, but often against their own citizens. Often, the "hate crime" or other law they just happen to come up with from their own jurisdiction or the UN guidelines are used against individual citizens under highly suspect reasons. Freedom of speech-in name only-not in practice. Common sense-never.

We have now come to this...

"Come express your opinions and the force of the state can and sometimes does come down on you."



Welcome to the United States of America!

evil islam is taking over?

the way it is looking ,blair and his government is trying hard to get an islamic I.D card for every non muslim in britain and that is frightening .

Islamic ID card

Persian: "islamic I.D card for every non muslim"

Eh? Why is the proposed ID card "islamic"? Does the Koran recommend ID cards? What do you mean?

Bob Doney

Free Speech Wins One in Britain - Part I

With free speech in Great Britain being eroded, I am not surprised more people are leaving. Here is an article I got via ACLU of Florida:

1. Race-hate laws to be changed after BNP case fails

By Andrew Norfolk and Greg Hurst
The London Times
Saturday, November 11, 2006

New laws to clamp down on racism are being prepared by the Government after the leader of the far-right British National Party was cleared of stirring up racial hatred by attacking Islam.

Gordon Brown swiftly pledged to bring in tougher powers to raise the chance of convictions in similar cases, calling the BNP’s statements offensive.

His intervention came after an all-white jury decided that Nick Griffin, the BNP chairman, broke no law when he condemned Islam as “a wicked, vicious faith” at a secretly filmed meeting.

Plans for an offence of incitement to religious hatred were thrown out in a rare Commons defeat for the Government in February after a campaign led by the comedian Rowan Atkinson.

A watered down version was passed requiring that prosecutors prove intent and protecting freedom of expression but has yet to become law. It is expected to take force from February next year.

Free Speech Wins One in Britain - Part II

Although his speech focused on the alleged evils of Islam and was supportive of Sikhs, Mr Griffin, 47, could only be charged — alongside Mark Collett, 26, the BNP’s publicity director — with inciting racial hatred. It was their second trial, after a jury failed to reach a verdict at the first.

Mr Brown told BBC News 24: “I think any preaching of religious or racial hatred will offend mainstream opinion in this country and I think we have got to do whatever we can to root it out from whatever quarter it comes. And if that means we have got to look at the laws again, we will have to do so.”

Treasury sources indicated that John Reid, the Home Secretary, was thinking on similar lines.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton, QC, the Lord Chancellor, last night supported Mr Brown’s calls forreform of religious hatred laws. “We should look at them in the light of what has happened because what is being said to young Muslim people of this country is that we as a country are anti-Islam and we have got to demonstrate without compromising freedom that we are not.”

Sources close to the case claimed that it was politically-motivated and doomed to fail. The decision to prosecute was announced a day after Labour called last year’s general election.

The Times understands that West Yorkshire Police had concerns the trial represented a no-lose opportunity for the BNP. It was feared that Mr Griffin and Mr Collett would be portrayed as martyrs for free speech if they were convicted, while an acquittal would be greeted by the party as a huge publicity coup.

Guess who!

"Mr Brown ...

John Reid ..."

Hey, guess who are the two leading contenders to take over as Labour leader and Prime Minister from Mr Blair! Still, I'm sure that forthcoming election won't have influence over their suddenly discovered views on anti-religious hatred.

Bob Doney

Usual stuff

"565,000 immigrants arrived in Britain, the overwhelming majority from […] [Muslim] Pakistan and Bangladesh."

If Mr Liddle had bothered to follow his own link he would have seen that for the latest year the highest number came from non-Muslim POLAND.

Bob Doney

"565,000 immigrants arrived

565,000 immigrants arrived in Britain, the overwhelming majority from […] [Muslim] Pakistan and Bangladesh."
If Mr Liddle had bothered to follow his own link he would have seen that for the latest year the highest number came from non-Muslim POLAND.
Bob Doney

I assume you are unfamiliar with the EU. I believe Americans distinguish between US Citizens moving from Michigan to Texas and Mexicans moving into Texas. Rather similarly since the Ameterdam Treaty there is a distinction within the European Union between EU Citizens from say Poland entering the United Kingdom and Citizens of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Morocco, algeria, Nigeria, Brazil, Albania etc.

That is why Liddle did not reference the 600.000 estimated to have arrived from Poland - noone knows. However, we do know that the British Govt predicted 13.000 would come. The 2001 Census was so badly organised that at least 1 million men are missing from the data - this means government spending is below what is should be on the addition some schools now have 12% pupils from Slovakia and non-English speaking, in our locality a school full of non-English speaking pakistani origin children now has Slovaks too - but no money for translators so no doubt property taxes will bear the burden.

31% population of London was not born in Britain - why does it have 25.000 Brazilians ? I wonder how many are legal ? Why does it have so many Albanians ?

The main point is that if the United States had the same population density as England - it would need another TWO BILLION people.

Britain has the fastest growing population in Europe and will grow another 11% over the next 15 years..........there is less rainfall per capita in London area than in Darfur. The infrastructure cannot handle such a rapidly increasing population

The main point

"The main point is that if the United States had the same population density as England - it would need another TWO BILLION people."

And if the USA didn't have so many deserts, forests and mountain ranges it would be able to support a lot more people! So what?

"Britain has the fastest growing population in Europe and will grow another 11% over the next 15 years..........there is less rainfall per capita in London area than in Darfur."

Fortunately London is surrounded by less populated regions to even up the numbers. On your argument we should abandon London because we can't raise enough cows there to keep Burger King supplied with beef.

"The infrastructure cannot handle such a rapidly increasing population"

Well, if the infrastructure is built, it can. I live in the most crowded region of Britain. Even here there is plenty of fallow land and water resources. And if the technologists come up with a clean way to burn coal, we (the UK) can be self-sufficient in fuel for a few hundred years without destroying the planet in the process.

Bob Doney


Yes, I am familiar with the EU, oh Patronising One!!

You didn't follow the link either, did you? I wasn't referring to the "600,000 Poles", but to the commentary provided by the Office for National Statistics on the 585,500 immigrants Liddle refers to. This figure clearly refers to immigration from both other EU countries and others.

I see you're also concerned about Slovaks and Brazilians, as well as about Albanians and Pakistanis. So it seems that Liddle's point, that Islam is the problem, doesn't resonance with you either. It's just foreigners in general.

Bob Doney

Oh no you didn't!

I feel betrayed and lied to! I thought his blog was anti-Muslim not racist and bigoted...(e.g. "there are too many non-European foreigners here")...

Is it so hard?

It pains me to see so much hatred and enmity going on around the world. Life is short and we will all die someday. Can we just get along while we are visiting here on earth?

@Kapitein Andre

Are you talking about Europe of today ?
Do you live in an alternate universe ?
Well there are FAR too many non-European foreigners here because almost all of them are muslim.
And what is wrong with racism to uphold multiculturalism anyway ???What is WRONG with racism to uphold political correctness and controlled multiculturalism under Western values ?
Multiculturalismcan/multiracial societies can only exist thanks to racism !
And everybody from the left to right knows this.
Bi-culturalism is the most vile,disgusting form of racism which will always result in genocide.
Guess what Europe is .
Why do """"non-racists"""" (mostly non-thinking Europeans) love genocidal racism in the end ?
Why do lefties alway race to the extreme right in the end ?
Why, why, why ??

I think if the British

I think if the British Govt  would give each household emigrating say $500.000 more people would leave and free up more space for more diversity and multiculturalism.................if more English people could be persuaded to emigrate (won't take much !) there would be more housing for the Newcomers the Govt so enjoys

good reasons to leave Britain

I can think of better reasons to leave Britain. (They were good enough for me, anyway.) The least controversial of these is that, for a given amount of money, one can find better housing pretty much in any other place on Earth. Other reasons have to do with the English character and work ethic (or lack thereof), but it seems unlikely that the Spectator would admit to these reasons.

And where do you suppose.....

...these 380K are headed????........We're up to our asses in huddled masses!!!!.............:-(.....Keep letting in the Pakis and the Muzzies, GB....Pretty soon, old Queenie will be wearing a burka and old Prince Charming (with the big ears) will be sticking his butt up in the air 5 times a day and making that mandatory for all who are left behind!......