Europe and Western Europe

I keep hearing the claim that “Europe is lost to Islam,” but Islam is more vulnerable than it appears, and Europe is a big place consisting of many rather different countries. Still, although I hope most of Europe can be saved, I cannot discount the possibility that certain areas or nations in Western Europe will indeed be destroyed by the immigration we are witnessing now. Some natives from countries such as the Netherlands, Germany, Britain and Sweden are already emigrating, but where are they leaving to? Most observers take it for granted that they will move to the United States, Canada and Australia, but these countries have Multicultural problems of their own, although not yet as severe as those in Europe. The most “European” countries of South America, for instance Chile, is another possibility, but one region is frequently overlooked: The formerly Communist countries of Eastern Europe.

Western Europeans sometimes talk about “Europe and Eastern Europe.” It is pretty arrogant, and it may soon be less true than ever. We could get a situation where parts of Western Europe become a Muslim or Third World colony, while Eastern Europe manages to stay “European,” perhaps accepting Eurabian refugees from the West. The roles will then be reversed, to “Europe and Western Europe.”

It is conceivable that the center of European civilization could move from Western Europe to Eastern Europe, although even Eastern Europe will be put under pressure from Muslims. The downfall of Communism, the idea of forced economic equality, in the East happened through a relatively bloodless “Velvet Revolution.” The downfall of Multiculturalism, the idea of forced cultural equality, in the West will not be equally bloodless.

When Communism was discredited, it was still Poles who lived in Warsaw, Bulgarians who lived in Sofia, Romanians who lived in Bucharest and Hungarians who lived in Budapest. When the veil of Multiculturalism disappears, it may well be Pakistanis who live in London, Turks who live in Berlin, Algerians who live in Paris and Moroccans who live in Amsterdam.

Maybe those Western Europeans who are now being displaced will become the new Jews of the 21st century, moving to whatever country will take them in.

Joern is right

Joern says:

‘The same ideological elite stirve for total control. In doing so it has to have a crowd of subjects by which they may explain their public doings.

As the tax-based welfare state grew in size they had to call for almost all the women to go to work too. …./Snip/’

How right you are. The elite’s raised spending on ‘social programs’ and they needed more tax revenue to pay for the new expenses. They encouraged married women to take jobs and become good taxpayers, funding the new social programs. Then fewer children were born and the population began to shrink. After a few abortions, the women were no longer able to have a child, if they wanted one. Then they needed to have workers to do the jobs the ethic citizens would not do.

Being P. C. at this time, the elite’s did not want to ‘discriminate’ against racial minorities of a different religion. So this new immigration began, only many of the new arrivals were more interested in collecting the new social benefits that were now offered. The new immigrants often did not learn the language of their host country. They tended to live together in ‘ethnic communities’ where they felt more at home.

Now they remain in the host country, not working, but being unhappy with their awkward life of being neither a citizen who is fully able to conduct a normal life.

Background - from a realistic point of view

As I would like to see it:
The same ideological elite stirve for total control. In doing so it has to have a crowd of subjects by which they may explain their public doings.
As the tax-based welfare state grew in size they had to call for almost all the women to go to work too.
The main purpose of all this was taxpayments/tax-revenue and nothing else and by this a steadily growing public sector.
Then the women stopped giving birth to the second perhaps the third child, and with long educations they began to give birth for the first time - if they did - in a much higher age.
The total result of taxation and draining too high wages from businesses as well made a lot of Danes unemployed. The high educated women seldom got more than one child if any child at all, and unemployed did not dare to give birth. Result: Too few children to replace the deads from 1981.
So from 1983 they began “to import” the problems from all over the world with a law of insane including a jurisdiction extended to the whole world.
Before the welfare state 2/3 of all Danes lived in their own houses on one income. Today they have the biggest problems to pay the rent for the family without two incomes.
Further development of the unlimited public need and unlimited public satisfaction - in the brains of ideologists was what matters.
Ideologists of all kinds are the same: They have a book telling them how the world should have been, and particulary how the human being should have been.
The book give them the way to transform the world and human being to fit into the theory written in the book.
The only problem every ideologists has is this: The world and the human beings are something else, much different from the prototypes of the textbook.
This fact disturb the mind of the ideologist, and he/she concludes:
We just have to get rid of the wrong ones, then we will get the world we aimed for in our theoretical consciousness of which their whole lives depend.
Shortly spoken:
Theory simply has everything for the purpose, the goal (in the clouds from where you cannot see and hear the Earth)… everything but the one single thing that is needed.
(Freely after Soeren Kierkegaard)
Don’t ask for the judge, he will decide in end with the a little help from his unideological but still earthly small helpers.

The other judges were appointed by the idelogists anyway. So their jobs are those of marionets.

We have the total Danish welfare history in Danish too right from the beginning, nothing has been left to casualty:
Back to reality:
A new monetary system:
If you heart is filled use your brain


"Old Europe"?

Ironic, because that is what Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was talking about when he referred to "old Europe." This was right after German Chancellor Schroeder offered French President Chirac a deal he couldn't refuse, getting France to break its promise to go along with the "serious consequences" for Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

Reporters asked asked Rumsfeld if "Europe" wasn't a "problem". He admitted that it was but added that the press always says "Europe" when it means "France and Germany," disregarding all the nations that backed us, as though no nations count but France and Germany. He said that France and Germany are "old Europe," that the center of gravity of NATO and Europe was shifting eastward.

No offense at all in that, but France and Germany sure threw a fit.

How about Asia ?

Strange, nobody is mentioning Asia as the new destination to emigrate to.

When i look arround here in Shanghai, many of the Europeans living here are mentioning the violence or the decline of moral values, the lack of real freedom in Europe as one of the reasons to move to China.

Yes, also China has muslim and minority problems. But in the way they are managing the muslim problem here, it will be entirely resolved in the next decade. In Xinjiang province, the number of Uygurs (muslims)was reduced from 75% in 1950 to 45 % now. They were all replaced by Hans. (7 % in 1950, 40 % now) The whole oil industry in Xinjiang is in hands of Hans. And, yes, also the apples you are eating in Brussels.
The Chinese government is tackling the issue on a systhematic, strategic, demographic way.

To govern a big country is like cooking a small fish.
Stir as little as possible.
- Lao Zi, Daode Jing 256 BC

EU-15 meltdown - too weak and worried to fight

It is possible some of the small and weaker EU countries might find themselves badly damaged by having too many Muslims and to few people willing to fight. It seems that most of the original EU-15 don’t have the energy to put-up a fight to save themselves.

As an American, its interesting to notice how the leaders of the EU are opposed to the American traits that make us different than most of the EU-15 members. They think that we are too religious, and at the same time, Muslims who pray five times a day are threatening them. Most of them don’t seem to understand that at some time, they must take a stand against the demographic problem facing them – aging population and a rapid increase in immigrants who have no wish to be like them.

Russia is looking at a demographic meltdown. Their birthrate is much lower than the replacement rate of 2.1%. In addition they have an increase in HIV, drug, and alcohol abuse.

In twenty more years, China will think Russia is too weak to fight a take over of Siberia. The Russians will not be able to field a working army in 2030. At this time they don't have a modern army.  



Hi Fjordman,

It's an interesting theory.  Do you have any figures for it?

Emigration is not a future issue, it's happening right now.  In the Netherlands, for example, there's a negative population growth due to emigration outdoing immigration.

According to the Dutch Statistics Bureau (here), most emigrants whose destination is known move to Belgium and Germany (due to housing prices) with the UK, US and former Dutch colonies following.  Turkey makes it to the top ten, due to Turkish immigrants and their families returning home, but no Eastern or Central European countries do so. 

On the contrary, you can constantly see on the news how the East European countries are afraid of losing populace due to internal EU immigration.

I'm sure there are those who emigrate to Central and Eastern Europe, but I doubt they represent a trend or a majority.

Islam In Europe




You're destroying the main arguments of the doom scenarios of these people. Leave them alone. All of us Europeans are emigrating “en masse” to the U.S of A or the east Europeans countries to flee Muslim immigration. That’s like a dogma. Don’t touch it! I hope that the day I want to buy my property in sunny southern France or Spain, most of this guys really look for “European culture” in Warsaw or Vilnius; so that prices will still be affordable for me....

Doom scenarios


Here's another theoretical doom scenario: With the Eastern and Central European countries joining the EU, it is much easier to travel between them. Local residents move out to seek out jobs elsewhere, this has already been called the largest mass migration in Europe in years.

The eastern countries will need more people to fill in the lack of workers and they will relax immigration standards (I'm not sure how strict they are nowadays). Immigrants from Muslim countries, which form the largest group of migrants and asylum seekers, start looking at Eastern Europe as a good possibility. There's a need for workers, no bad name as Islamophobes, ability to immigrate without too much hassle etc.

As the Muslim population grows in Western Europe, tougher and tougher restrictions are put into place. The atmosphere on the streets becomes very anti-Muslim. With incentives to move and a feeling of dejection from their current home, Muslims start moving into Eastern/Central Europe.

Once the community starts off, it will attract more and more people. For an Arabic speaker, I'm not sure there's a big difference between learning Dutch and Hungarian.

Islam In Europe


Great and in 1800 Years for the New Jews

The article stated: "Maybe those Western Europeans who are now being displaced will become the new Jews of the 21st century, moving to whatever country will take them in."

Great and 1800 years, the U.N. can partition part of Western Europe, i.e. Lichtenstein, giving Lichtenstein to the Western European refugees, i.e. the "New Jews", who flee persecution elsewhere in the world.

Ignoring the true history of Western Europe that Western Europeans once lived in Western Europe for thousands of years prior to Islamification and Dispersion "Diaspora of the "New Jews", the surrounding Western Eurabia Islamic "umma" can lob rockets into Lichtenstein claiming Vaduz is their holy city with it and Lichenstein as being "occupied".

But maybe...just maybe (sorry I stutter), if the "New Jews" give back just some of Lichtenstein and agree to partition Valduz in half, then there can be "peace" with the "peaceful religion".

Eastern Europe also in danger

I hate to kill that little optimistic thought about Eastern Europe saving us, but I don't think hope is justified. SOmething like 10% or more of the Bulgarian population is already Turks. Russia has a huge nominally Muslim population, 15 million, who have much higher birthrates than the Slavs, whose birthrates are as bad or worse than those of Germany. The only difference is that most Eastern European people haven't bought into the higher nonsense of liberalism and the multicult yet. Their governments, however, especially the Russian government, have. If the Orthodox nationalists come to power in Russia, then you could speak of the East coming to Europe's rescue, but at this point that seems an unlikely scenario.

Australia: MultiCulti Dreamin'

Fjordman said:

"Most observers take it for granted that they will move to the United States, Canada and Australia, but these countries have Multicultural problems of their own, although not yet as severe as those in Europe."

Yes we have problems thanks to our dreamy forebears and the multiculti industry. But Australians are a physical people and are more likely than most to stand up to Islamic belligerence. You may have heard of this. Now read this.

Muslim Lebanese thugs have learned their lesson? I very much doubt it. Note the comical bias in the article. The poor Muslim Lebanese angels, too scared to go to the beach. Always the victims. The great unwashed whites the perpetrators, the savages. Welcome to upside down world.

But again, the average Joe down here will not prostrate himself before the false Gods of multiculturalism and belligerent Islam. We have good bullshit detectors and far from push-overs. I hope for our sakes, we get the cream of old-Europe. We need people. They would be very welcome, if they leave their self-destructive altruism behind.

Where to?

A lot of Brits are emigrating to France. It's a wine thing.

Bob Doney


Fjordman might be overlooking one element here: language. Most Western Europeans already have at least a basic knowledge of English and/or Spanish. Eastern European languages on the other hand are rather hard to learn, this might prevent people from emigrating to Eastern Europe. Besides, I read somewhere else on this website that Russia is getting islamified quickly as well.

Somewhere to run to

An interesting post and the first time I have heard this opinion being expressed by anyone other than myself. As you say, most commentators seem to presume that Western Europeans will move to what may be termed the ‘New World Anglosphere’ – Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United States and completely overlook the South American option. I have frequently visited Argentina and it is a wonderful country. Land and property prices are very reasonable and the cost of living extremely cheap by European standards. Like the other country you mention [Chile] and Uruguay it has strong historical links with Spain, Germany and Great Britain dating back to the late eighteenth, nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. It has a strongly Christian [Catholic] culture and is forecast to experience strong economic growth over the coming years. It definitely warrants serious consideration as a ‘bolt-hole’ for those fleeing Europe’s Islamic future.

Likewise, your comments on Eastern Europe are spot on. On a recent visit to Poland I was struck by how culturally robust the society seemed to be. The people are extremely proud of their Polish and Christian history and culture. They seem to be very certain of their national identity and, having been subjected to the twin totalitarian evils of the twentieth century [communism and Nazism] and survived, I would imagine they will be highly resistant to the new threats posed by Islamism and EU sponsored multi-culturalism. Europeans may once more have cause to thank the Poles for saving them from Islamic domination.

People forget where most

People forget where most americans come from.  Europe has always been really good at spinning off emigrants.  The nice areas here are still overcrowded.

Maybe a bit off topic but

Maybe a bit off topic but nonetheless telling..
Today I read for my first time about a Muslim actually being kicked out from a mosque by his fellow muslims and asked to apologize.
In a published article he was simply calling for an uncompromising condemnation of terrorism committed in the name of islam... which apparently got his fellow muslims so upset they asked him to quit and apologize ..

Yet hundreds of others advocating hatred and worse are not kicked out by their respective communities (at least I didn't notice).
I wonder what to think about who represents the majority of muslims.