France Soir Backs Down. Others Stand Firm
From the desk of Hjörtur J. Guðmundsson on Thu, 2006-02-02 00:34
Raymond Lakah, the owner of the French newspaper France Soir, has sacked Jacques Lefranc, the paper’s editor. Yesterday France-Soir republished the twelve controversial Danish Muhammad cartoons (see them all here, halfway down the page). Mr Lakah declared: “We express our apologies to the Muslim community and to all the persons that were shocked by the publication of the cartoons.”
French Muslim leaders had announced their intention to sue the paper for the cartoons. They said the publication was a “provocation.” Raymond Lakah, a Franco-Egyptian businessman, is the owner of Angel Gate, a holding company that also owns the airline companies Air Horizons and Star Airlines. The only adequate response to Mr Lakah's decision is a consumer boycott of France Soir. While Mr Lakah has a right to sack Mr Lefranch, French readers have the right to boycott his paper.
Robert Ménard, the chairman of the Paris based organization Reporters Sans Frontières (Reporters Without Borders), said yesterday that Jyllands-Posten has given the world a good lesson in what freedom of expression and democracy is all about. He said the newspaper has nothing to apologize for; if someone is offended the case can be brought to a court of law. “I understand that Muslims feel shocked because of depictions of the prophet. They have the right to, but they cannot force others to have the same opinion. It is not up to them to judge what a newspaper in a non-Muslim country should publish,” Ménard said. He added that Denmark is greater for not accepting a compromise.
Michael Konken, the chairman of the German Journalists Association DJV, agrees. He corrected his own spokesman who had previously claimed that the republishing of the cartoons by two German newspapers, Die Welt and Berliner Zeitung, violated good journalism. “Nothing can justify threats by Islamists to murder Danish journalists,” Konken said at a press meeting yesterday, arguing that freedom of expression was one of the pillars of democracy. The editor of Die Welt, Roger Köppel, said that he considered it “his duty as a journalist” to publish six of the twelve cartoons to show readers what the dispute was about.
Last month the chairman of the Norwegian Press Association, Per Edgar Kokkvold, had come out in support of the Norwegian daily Magazinet which was the first newspaper to republish the cartoons. Its editor and other staff members have received many death threats. Last week Kokkvold received a death threat, too. Asked if this affected him he said he stood firmly by his previous statement that it was the right decision for Magazinet to publish the cartoons and start a debate in Norway on Islam and freedom of expression.
After a meeting in Tunis interior ministers from 17 Arab countries have issued a statement urging the Danish government to punish the illustrators who drew the cartoons. On Monday the Egyptian parliament urged Egyptians to boycott Danish products, the Syrian government has called its ambassador in Denmark home and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Palestine, Ekrima Sabri, has demanded apologies from the Danish government for the cartoons.
Yesterday, however, the leader of the Danish Muslim organizations which have been protesting the cartoons in Denmark, imam Abu Laban, was exposed as being double-tongued. To the Western media he said that he was in favour of easing tensions while to the Arab media he continued inciting hatred towards Denmark and the Danes.
Danish imams and radical Muslims are still feeding the Arab media with disinformation about the country they live in. “Every day pictures and articles are being published more horrible and serious than those published last September,” the Danish imam Raed Hlayhel said in an interview with the The Saudi Gazette on Monday. According to the paper Mr Hlayhel is preparing another tour of the Middle East to raise more support for the campaign against Jyllands-Posten and the Danish government. His spokesman in Denmark, however, says that this is not correct and that The Saudi Gazette quoted Mr Hlayhel wrongly.
Meanwhile, the Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen is attempting to find a diplomatic solution to bring the cartoon dispute to an end. He repeated, however, that “The Danish government cannot apologize on behalf of a Danish newspaper. Independent media are not edited by the government.” Mr Rasmussen called upon his countrymen not to boycott Muslim owned stores and restaurants in Denmark or products from Muslim countries.
The offices of Jyllands-Posten in Copenhagen and Aarhus were cleared on Tuesday after bomb threats which later turned out to be false. Asked by the BBC whether the paper would still publish the cartoons today, knowing all the consequences, Flemming Rose, the culture editor of Jyllands-Posten, said: “That is a hypothetical question. I would say that I do not regret having commissioned those cartoons and I think asking me that question is like asking a rape victim if she regrets wearing a short skirt Friday night at the discotheque.”
More on the Cartoon Case (see links at end of article)
Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 18:13.
I'd love to see the escalation of the cartoon case. More and more european newspapers should post the cartoons on the first pages on the base of free press. Islam states should theaten more violent response.
Grow up! There is no absolute freedom of speech without limits!
Do you have any values? again
Submitted by Ammer (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 12:21.
Some times I find it hard to insult you guys like you insult me. Actually I really think you have some values, but the problem is that you are lost in proving it in public matter. While you are lost you think criticizing them in silly way with lot of ill-implications, is not problem because you already see your self lost. You don't feel offended because your God is not real in your eyes. Or, he is not loved one. You don't fear on your children from the bad future, because you never know if they are your children. You never fear of their minds because you are thinking it is great thing to let them go astray like you. You lost your guidence and you are empty from values. You feel some needs to some values, but you are stick with only one, which is not anyvalue, but the inexistance of any value, which it is FREEDOM. Freedom of what? the answer is, the freedom from values. Why you are like this? Simply because that was the only way which gathered the nation of Danish, nation of French, nation of every so called democratic country in EU.
But why you guys chose this stupid system "Democracy"? because it is the only way to gather people in your countries and let them do what they really want to do. They want freedom? No, Actually freedom is a step, not a goal. To be democratic? actually no, it is also a step. Then what you want guys? The answer is, you are human beings, and as every other human being you are searching for happiness, but you failed to find one definition/guidence for happiness among your people, because you are surely ignorant of the most critical/important thing in your life. which is: What is happiness? and how to get it?. And for the elite class people of your country to stay the elite class, they just worked on a proposal to have the majority to agree on some system. And because you people are ignorants about any provable way of happiness, your people decided on the Democratic System, and Freedom Ideology. Actually your life do really sucks. Democrcy is the most stupid system in the world, because it is simply, counting numbers. The biggest group of monkeys will get the bananas. And the whole world should repect the choice of those monkeys because they are so much. Yes, you are really went astray. But actually you have no choice. You either accept Islam and be good honest, or you live in the propaganda of Democracy/Happiness relation. Islam actually inside you, but you just have desires which are just used to be over control, and your mind is just used to jump over logic only for some topics. I don't want your to apologize, because you are really doing much more evil things than insulting somebody you don't have certian information about (if you have no ill-will), you actually living in the earth which your fathers and mothers didn't make, and eat food which you didn't creat its source materials by your hands, and breathing air without asking about your right in it. You think your self an animal? ok, animals don't ask for democracy, they just serve the man. You think your self man? man has mind, values, manners, which will urge him to search for his rights and duties before you could stuck in any where far from your happiness. if you want to have the rights of human and behave like animals, then the best recipe for that is just to be European who insulted the prophet because he is ignorant about what that means. You think it is freedom, and freedom is something you just dream of, actually you are slave to your animality just like donkeys. If you want to think as a human being then this is the way:
* Who am I? SOME EXISTING UNKNOWN CREATION
* What I want? HAPPINESS
* What is happiness? TO BE HAPPY
* How to be happy? This is personalized unswer. Good people tends to be happy when they do good things and avoid bad things. And bad people tends to do what they desire, or do nothing. And many people are a mix of good and bad over time and conditions.
* If you are bad, actually you will have very little ammount of thinking about your happiness, and you simply will be slave to your desires which will keep you in the dark
* If you are good, then, What is good/bad? Good is what will let get benefit more than disbenefit in your way to happiness . and bad is the opposit.
* How to know what will make benefits more than disbenefits? Assuming that this world has some rules consisting over time, to know what is good and what is bad we need to know past/present/future.
* How can I know the future? That is not possible eternally so far, and It is loosely possible for the few years to come.
* So how to know what is good/bad for eternal life? This is what religion serves.
* How to know some religion is right? You check its proofs and the more probability of the basic proofs the more solid mindful belief. You intellectual talents will make the role here. And if you really honest and do value your philosophy you will not accept such weak proofs like what christianity or judaism have. You actually will go to Islam, which is the only authentic religion to some beneficial doctrine which will fill well in the space of my way to happiness. Your mind is your friend here, and if you are really want to be honest then stop believing in unproved things (like the integrity of the bible), and denying things you never can know about its inexistence (like God).
* Know about your God, and follow his guidence for what is good and what is bad, and feel the real happiness.
Submitted by cutigerz on Thu, 2006-02-02 07:53.
good luck in Denmark turning back the tide of the culture change and intollerance brough upon you by the muslim presence. They dont want to assimilate and live in harmony. Kind of like the "borg" on Star Trek. I"m not a "treky" but it's a comparison that comes to mind. Unfortunately it seems rather accurate. Call, write and vote for politicians who support your points of views. If that doesn't work, organize your own interest groups. Put pressure on moderate, muslim groups to do more than be a silent presence. Silence is consent. Here in the States we have asked why CAIR,(council on American Islamic Relations) to speak out against radical muslim groups and their actions world wide. I think it may be lip service on their part. Do what you can to let them know you arent passive about your objections to their pressures of your capitulation and subjugation to muslim. It's not my religion so I'm not bound to it. I'll give them the moderate respect I do to anything other religion, but you want find me on a prayer rug 5 times a day. I'm getting ready for WW3.
Good luck Denmark,
Submitted by Adriane (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 08:49.
..."Many have tried to attack Islam, but look, they have all gone and Islam is still here."...
Thanks to Islam, so is polio.
The Monty Python movie "Life
Submitted by Yitzchak Goodman (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 07:21.
The Monty Python movie "Life of Brian" makes fun, for one example, of the prohibition in Judaism of saying G-d's name. Some people were offended by the film, but no boycotts of Great Britain resulted from it. No British nationals were beaten up. Salman Rushdie, on the other hand, will need bodyguards for the rest of his life. Would one of the Muslim contributors to this thread like to comment on this?
Submitted by Distant Observer (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 06:04.
Non-Muslim Europe is choosing its leaders now, seeing who can be trusted to stand up, and who will sit back down when threatened.
Right now, it is Denmark that is leading.
This matters, I think, because ultimately Muslims will not live in peace with others; there is really no historical precedent for it, and every precedent possible for the opposite.
So I expect the two sides to split within Europe, with Muslims migrating to friendler (for them) climes, and non-Muslims doing the same.
Little changes now will be amplified steadily as first a few people move shifting the balance, then a few more, then...
To Anan:Thank you for
Submitted by Proud Infidel (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:29.
Thank you for pointing out the cultural divide between the muslims and the civilized. The muslim world is powered by concepts such as honor, respect and faith. The civilized world has moved beyond these dark age notions of what the backbone of a society should be, and has replaced those notions with principles applicable to all, rule of law, freedom of expression, religion, etc...
In your world, he (and I do mean he, and not she) who is dishonored or disrespected is entitled to kill or maim. In my world, there is a rule, applicable to all, that prohibits murder, and "he offended me" is no defense to such rule.
It seems to me, therefore, that western values and muslim values are incompatible and irreconcilable. I think we would agree on this.
Submitted by Aman on Thu, 2006-02-02 03:43.
Those cartoons have shown the Muslims the truth of the european tolerance.
what is funny that the europeans always lecture us about human right and respect of the minorities!!
Our values are much better than yours, because we respect everybody.
Thanks for showing us your ugly face of racism
yes, you muslims....
Submitted by krestjanin on Sat, 2006-04-22 10:58.
"Our values are much better than yours, because we respect everybody.
Thanks for showing us your ugly face of racism
ya akhi aman!
you respect everybody?
so how comes that protesters in libanon and syria burned churches?
so how comes that bibles are forbidden in saudi arabia?
so how comes that there were recently egyptian copts attacted while they were praying in church by muslim radicals?
so how comes that the afghan who converted to christianity ...
and a last counter-example: so how comes that palestinians attacked european cultural facilities and do you remember how they treated jewish synagogues when the israelis withdrew from several settlements last year?
I'd like to cite you: "Thanks for showing us your ugly face of racism".
you know, i personally believe if you would uunderstand your religion in the right way, then islam world would be leading... but since 800 years, since the taqleed you are moving into the wrong direction....
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:03.
And by the way, if we Europeans are really so bad people and if we really treat Muslims so badly - then what the f... are you people doing in Europe? Pardon my language, but are you saying Muslims living in Europe are some kind of masochists??
Submitted by Aman on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:53.
I wont answer you in the same filthy language, but before asking Muslims to leave:
Get out of our countries first, withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan, stop stealing our money and resources.
Aman has a point...
Submitted by Victor (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 19:32.
Aman wrote:"...but before asking Muslims to leave:
Get out of our countries first, withdraw from Iraq and Afghanistan, stop stealing our money and resources."
I think it's a valid point (but for the nonsense about "stealing" their money and resources). Islam and Western Civ are irreconcilable. We should get out of their lands, and they should get out of ours. Good fences make good neighbors.
But Aman, Israel is NOT your land. It was Jewish land long before Muslims invaded. But we're beyond argument on that point. The matter will be decided on the battlefield.
Don't put words in my mouth
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 05:00.
I wasn't asking you to leave people to leave. I just asked why you were staying in Europe if staying there is really so horrible?? Don't put words in my mouth.
And well, according to opinion polls in Iraq for instance majority of Iraqis think it was a good thing the United States and its allies invaded the country and put Saddam Hussein from power. So honestly I don't really see the problem.
Wrong information as usual
Submitted by Aman on Thu, 2006-02-02 05:58.
100 years ago the jews were only 5% of the population in Palestine, but during England occupation of Palestine, the jews came from all over the world , and they killed or terrorized the original people to flee from the country.
It's my region so don't tell lies about the history of it?
To the infidel: you wrong, we are much better than you? When we were in Spain, Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived together in peace, but when the Christians recaptured the country they killed the Muslims or forced them to convert to Christianity, and they also killed the Jews, and again the Nazis killed the jews . And now you are repeating the very same crime by supporting the killing of the Palestinians by the Israelis. So who is better; you failed to live with any other religion!!!
And regarding Iraq, do not tell me that this polls was made my the Americans or the allies, because I really believe them tooo much, any way the Iraqi resistance will prove the real wish of the Iraqi people. So Danish soldiers in Iraq; hide in your base waiting to be targeted by the Iraqi men.
I do not care about your opinion of Islam, who are you to judge this great religion?
Many have tried to attack Islam, but look, they have all gone and Islam is still here.
Bist du der denker? Ich glaube nicht
The Iraqi resistance which
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 06:10.
The Iraqi resistance which is killing Iraqi citizens?
I'm not judging anything, I'm just saying that I'm an independent person and it's up to me what I think of Islam and not you or anyone else. That is the beauty of freedom of speech my friend.
Yes, sure Islam is still there but hey speaking of that, Christianity has been there longer and hasn't gone anywhere!
someone knows muslims products to boycott
Submitted by der lux (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 11:02.
i want to boycott muslims products,
anyone knows marks to boycott,i dont want to help those people buying their products,even if thye live in europe i dont buy that newspaper anymore france soir.
neither i want my money goes to palestinians or others muslims countries,
let them be poor ,europe dont have to feed them
i dont want my money goes to muslims countries.
Think about it
Submitted by The Ink Slinger (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 14:35.
i want to boycott muslims products
Then you're no better than they are.
Like you and I, they are entitled to say what they want, as long as it's within the law.
Or they would be if they lived in Europe.
"Then you're no better than
Submitted by DevonianStew (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 17:14.
"Then you're no better than they are."
Ink Slinger that is just wrong. Boycotts are protected under freedom of speech and if an individual choses to do so... there is not a thing wrong with that. If he wants to boycott goods from Muslims then he has every right to do so. I also think that if Muslims want to boycott Danish products that too is perfectly fine. They are expressing themselves.
What IS wrong is to kill or threaten to kill people because you are offended. Censorship, even one self-imposed through fear, is not a free society. Your intelligence is blind if you equate the two.
You are slinging something but it isn't ink.
Submitted by The Ink Slinger (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 20:41.
"What IS wrong is to kill or threaten to kill people because you are offended. Censorship, even one self-imposed through fear, is not a free society."<-i>
We couldn't agree more. Go to our blog and read what we say about this business, here and here.
You are slinging something but it isn't ink.<-i>
Let us guess....Pearls before swine, maybe?
Submitted by Aman on Fri, 2006-02-03 02:24.
First of all most of the Muslims are against threatening anybody, second, boycott is reaction to your government ignorance of the problem , your pm refused to sit with the ambassadors who tried to solve the problem early enough .
I agree boycott wont help the integration, but do you think the cartoons did help it?
You says: "I know that it is forbidden for you to draw Muhammeds face ... well, it is not forbidden for us to do so and I do not understand why we should follow the rules of your religion".
No, we do not expect any non Muslims to follow our rules, we have nothing to do with your behaviors, this is not the case. All what we want is to think about the feeling of the others, which includes both Muslims in Denmark and in the whole Islamic world. The cartoons were not innocent at all, they tried to link the prophet to terrorism, in order to give a very bad impression about Islam and its prophet and followers.
We do not read danish newspaper, but we can't accept that those newspapers ignore the feeling of 1.3 billion people
Freedom of expression is really very good value, but there is nothing in the world without limits, otherwise, there would be no constitution in any country, or the constitution would be four words : " Do whatever you want ".
If this newspaper has doubt about some Muslims behavior, the director could ask an Islamic center to send an Article concerning the Issue, and then anybody could reply, criticize, or agree, it should be a debate to reach the truth.
You said: "Let it be a matter between Denmark and the Muslims living in Denmark"
It's not an internal issue because, Prophet Muhammad is the prophet of all the Muslims, not only for danes Muslims. Denmark is not the only country on earth, there are many many other countries.
Submitted by DK (not verified) on Fri, 2006-02-03 11:26.
Dear Aman, I never said that I agreed in the cartoons being printed and I do not think that they helped integration at all ... I think that it was a stupid act.
But done is done and still ... they were printed in a Danish newspaper for Danish readers, so I still think that it should be a matter between that newspaper and the Muslims living in Denmark ... they could boycot the newspaper!
It was also stupid of the Danish Muslims to involve 1.3 billion other Muslims in this matter. Abu Laban is actually the bad guy here, he was the one involving you guys and with false drawings as well, so he is the one that hurt your feelings ... if it was not for him, you would never have known about it (you said yourself that you don't read Danish newspapers).
Feel free to boycot our goods and burn our flag, but just have in mind that we still buy daily goods at the little local muslim store in DK and we do not burn your flag!
Stop threatening our lives and stop threaten about suicide bombers in DK and finally stop threaten with third world war ... do you want us to believe that the cartoons realy showed the truth?
To "der denker"
Submitted by Aman on Fri, 2006-02-03 02:19.
No the Iraqi resistance which have killed 2250 american soldiers, and which will kick the 200000 western soldiers + 530 coward Danes out of the country.
There is a big deference between having your own opinion and publishing offending ugly cartoons in a public newspaper.
There is no beauty of freedom of speech without respect.
Fake but accurate cartoons
Submitted by Dinah (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 17:06.
Why all the outrage now I wondered?
The original cartoons were published back in September. Where you guys been? Well. This might help explain it.
Read this from The Counterterrorism Blog:
"Last November, Abu Laban, a 60-year-old Palestinian who had served as translator and assistant to top Gamaa Islamiya leader Talaal Fouad Qassimy during the mid-1990s and has been connected by Danish intelligence to other Islamists operating in the country, put together a delegation that traveled to the Middle East to discuss the issue of the cartoons with senior officials and prominent Islamic scholars. The delegation met with Arab League Secretary Amr Moussa, Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Sheikh Mohammad Sayyed Tantawi, and Sunni Islam’s most influential scholar, Yusuf al Qaradawi. "We want to internationalize this issue so that the Danish government will realize that the cartoons were insulting, not only to Muslims in Denmark, but also to Muslims worldwide," said Abu Laban.
On its face, it would appear as if nothing were wrong. However, the Danish Muslim delegation showed much more than the 12 cartoons published by Jyllands Posten. In the booklet it presented during its tour of the Middle East, the delegation included other cartoons of Mohammed that were highly offensive, including one where the Prophet has a pig face. But these additional pictures were NOT published by the newspaper, but were completely fabricated by the delegation and inserted in the booklet..."
Also important to note:
Raymond Lakah, owner of the French Soir, is an Eqyptian exile living in France. From Egypt Today:
http://www.egypttoday.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2824 (scrolling req'd)
"More than four years after allegedly fleeing to Paris under the weight of some LE 1.2 billion in bad debt, Lakah, 41, started making his own headlines last month (quite literally) as the new owner of France-Soir, a storied French tabloid."
He is known as Rami in Egypt.
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 03:56.
"Our values are much better than yours, because we respect everybody. Thanks for showing us your ugly face of racism"
Tell that to the Jews depicted in so ugly manner in various Arabic newspapers.
We Respect Religions But We Are Against Occupation
Submitted by Aman on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:52.
Our lands is occupied by the Israelis so we depict the Israeli occupiers ,not the followers of the Jewish faith.
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:56.
Your land? That is highly debatable. There was no Palistinian people 100 years ago and there were more Jews living in Palestine than Arabs.
In any case, I understand God (the God of Israel) is also often being depicted in a very bad way in Arabic newspapers. So try again friend.
Congratulations to Brussels Journal
Submitted by dymphna (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 03:40.
Please accept my appreciation for your slog through this long (and often ignored)story. You deserve some kind of prize for your efforts to keep this story alive as the muslim fundamentalists got more and more hysterical. If it were not for your hard work, Denmark would be still on its own as its supposed Danish-citizen imams traveled thru the ME spreading lies -- sorry, I mean taqiyya -- about the Danes' principles of free speech.
I can't do anymore than continue to applaud your efforts in my own blog -- as I've done since September. But since no one else could be bothered, I only had the BJ to turn to...
Thanks for all your work. You have polished the image of journalism.
Submitted by Aman on Thu, 2006-02-02 03:50.
You dymphna ,Do not think that this cartoons will effect us, our faith is much more stronger than you ever think.
we just want to teach you a lesson of respecting others.
Good for you!
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:47.
"You dymphna ,Do not think that this cartoons will effect us, our faith is much more stronger than you ever think."
Well good for you Aman! But then why all this huge hysteria???
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 03:58.
"we just want to teach you a lesson of respecting others."
Respecting others? In what world are you living? Is burning the Danish and Norwegian flag a symbol of respect for others? Thos two flags bear the cross, the holiest symbol og Christan people. RESPECTING OTHERS?? Tell me another one...
Submitted by Aman on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:15.
The burning of the flags of denmark and norway was because of the stupid act of disrespecting Muslims by the newspapers and the governments of those two countries not because Muslims wanted to burn the cross!!
I have Christian friends and I refuse to humiliate them?
But the question is ; Do you do the same?
And by the way have you ever heard , about burning the danish flag by Muslims before, this was a reaction of your aggressive action
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:52.
"The burning of the flags of denmark and norway was because of the stupid act of disrespecting Muslims by the newspapers and the governments of those two countries not because Muslims wanted to burn the cross!!"
Yeah sure, burning the flags if of course someone else's fault, not the Muslims who are ACTUALLY DOING IT!!! How immature can one argument be...
to all of you It isn't a
Submitted by Aman on Thu, 2006-02-02 05:15.
to all of you
It isn't a Hysteria, it just our freedom , we don't want to buy your goods, and we will burn the flags of all of the countries that do not respect Islam," yes the Muslims have done it" its very common to burn the flag of the country that offended you .
We believe in all of the prophets so we respect them all and refuse to humiliate them.
Yeh your right the Danish flag was burned when Denmark supported the invasion of Iraq as you said. Which is worse: to burn a flag of a country that invades you or to invade a country? try to think about it " du bist der denker "
A matter between DK and Muslims in DK
Submitted by DK (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 10:39.
"It isn't a Hysteria, it just our freedom , we don't want to buy your goods, and we will burn the flags ..."
To Aman: Yes, it is your freedom not to buy Danish goods and it is your freedom to burn our flag ... do as you like.
But by beating up Danish workers (Arla) and threatening our lives you only widen the gap between our cultures and that does not help the Muslims living in Denmark. If integration was difficult before it sure has become worse now.
I know that it is forbidden for you to draw Muhammeds face ... well, it is not forbidden for us to do so and I do not understand why we should follow the rules of your religion.
The drawings offended you ... well, when did Muslims outside Denmark suddenly start reading Danish newspapers and why? Do you even understand Danish?
Let it be a matter between Denmark and the Muslims living in Denmark ... they have their freedom not to buy that newspaper (Jyllandsposten).
Submitted by The Ink Slinger (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 10:50.
We have posted an appeal today.
Bloggers - do your job!
Okej! Bring all
Submitted by A New Believer on Thu, 2006-02-02 09:04.
Okej! Bring all Scandinavians back from the Middle East, then ship all the Middle Easterners born in Scandinavia back to whatever country they came from in the first place..No problem. That way they do not have to worry about it, and then Europe does not have to listen to all the lies about the peace loving arabs. My ex husband was a Muslim and an Arab..biggest liar I ever met in my life! Biggest thief too! vindictive, whiny, moaning, thieving (ran up huge bills on the electric, telephone, credit cards) lying, nasty,greedy, selfish, never gave a dinar or pound for zakat (charity) in his life, vicious and cheated like a dog every day of his married life, with men or women. ( we remained married because I maintained the illusion so his family would not have a heart attack). Drank like a fish also. But he said that that was alright.. to lie to a non Muslim, but not good to lie to another Muslim. ( He lied to everyone) Hmmm! He was an Alawite ..he said Sunnis and Shiite were scum of the earth.. only his sect was good. He hated Jordanians, Palestinians, Kuwaitis, was really nasty about the Saudis, laughed at Bahrainis and called them stupid. He was very invective about Libyans and other arab countries..He thought they were all childish and stupid.. not good any of them. He only liked Lebanese as they were really French like and Syrians.. his country. He never set foot in a mosque outside of Syria. All that religious stuff was for the birds according to him, and the only time he ever stepped into a mosque, was when he was home and he HAD to go. Which he managed to make sure was not often. But he SWORE he was a "religious" man. And his rhetoric sounds almost as if he could have been your relative, Aman. I guess it is alright to bomb, behead, maim, murder and kill as long as you do it for Islam, Muslims and Jihad. He was passionate and hot blooded for his religion, his devotion and submission to islam was equaled only by his vices. He never learned any of that from me, but every day he exhorted me to become one of the faithful. His friends were like him.. so where are all these righteous people, god fearing and holy. He would jump up and dance gleefully around the house when they showed pictures of bombings on innocent civilians, they consumed a case of Taittinger's champagne in celebration..his tongue trilling happily, twas the glorious jihad! Payback time, retribution time. From him, his friends, neighbours or relatives I NEVER saw that caring, peaceful, sweet, soulful Islam. The only time a prayer rug ever entered that house was the one I went to his mosque and bought, the only time a Quran ever entered that house I bought it. Yes, respect that is what he said.. we respect the religion and so should others. The world needs to respect Muslims, the religion and their people. I learned a lot from him. I learned the respect arabs have for one another and for people different than themselves. I learned about adherence to traditional values and family life in Islam. I learned about religious tolerance, equality, charity, courage, reliability!That is why I am an Odinist today! Praise Odin! Baldur save us!
To" a new believer"
Submitted by Aman on Fri, 2006-02-03 02:07.
I understand that you're describing your personal experience with a bad husband,
You have said that he is a liar and he is not following Islam at all, but then you used him to judge Arabs, and Muslims,
SO if somebody attacks innocent people, then it's Islam fault, and if somebody is not following Islam, it's also Islam fault!!!!
Is that logical?
I was in Germany and I had some very good German friends, one of them is like a brother, he visited me in my country. But I also met in Germany few NAZIS, they were young HITLERS except his strange mustache
So I ask you: who I should depend on to judge Germans, the good or the bad guys?
P.S: your husband is not one of my relatives
Submitted by Bob Doney on Sat, 2006-02-04 21:10.
A very interesting piece. Thank you for the information.
"A New Believer" wrote --
Submitted by Victor (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 20:12.
"Bring all Scandinavians back from the Middle East, then ship all the Middle Easterners born in Scandinavia back to whatever country they came from in the first place..No problem."
It really is the best solution -- IF, Europe wants to stay European, and not become Muslim. But in order to do that the Euros will first have to repudiate their multi-culti Liberal ideology. Repudiate Liberalism, or become Muslim -- either way, Liberalism is done for.
(Your account of being married to a Muslim needs to be more widely published.)
Submitted by Aman on Fri, 2006-02-03 00:15.
Palestine is for the Palestinians , there is nothing called jewish land, there is jewish faith, but nationality is something deferent,
You have said " The matter will be decided on the battlefield"
From your way of speaking , it's obvious that you believe in war not in the truth, according to your logic; the stronger always has the right, it's jungle law.
Submitted by Distant (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 09:24.
Came here from welt.die after 'having read about this for the first time today. As an ethnic Indian who's lived in parts of Western Europe and US for many years now, I must say I'm not that surprised by all this. Firstly, to all those people who think that 'the cartoons werent offensive' - I'm a former Christian, now an atheist and I felt vaguely offended myself. Never even in any mainstream Indian newspaper would anything of this sort have been published, about any religion or ethnicity- not because it was illegal, obviously, or even because it would lead to the paper getting burned on the streets (that happens in India anyway on the slightest pretext, and its very good for circulation), but because the editors would have recognised that at least three of them are just nasty for the sake of being nasty.
That being said, of course the government should have restated that there is nothing illegal about what was done; and it is to the Danish government's credit that they did so. What is to its discredit, and what has been remarked upon by whomever I have shown this to, is that the Danish PM didnt come out and say 'these are in bad taste'. He probably didnt think so, did he? And neither do most of you. That's kind of disgusting, and also symptomatic of the rampant cultural insecurity of parts of Western Europe.
I look forward to seeing if this happens in the US. I doubt even the Washington Times or the WSJ, the most rightwing papers I can think of, would run them. I am not surprised that it didnt happen in the UK, even though the Independent is a close ally of France-Soir and Die Welt; not just because of the thankfully dead religious defamation bill, but because the British and Americans - and here I speak from experience - are just more welcoming and tolerant and *polite* than Western Europe.
To the person who said, 'why dont you insult some of our cultural icons' I say: well, thats the problem, isnt it? ITs no surprise this comes from places scared of losing cultural independence and what remains of their dismantled cultural heritage. Which is again why a mainstream US paper wouldnt feel the need to stoop that low. So, I'd insult some Danish cultural icons, if I could think of any.
What the hell..
Hans Christian Andersen dyed his hair.
'Italian for Beginners' was REALLY bad.
See my point?
Oh, and all the offended Muslim posters - try to stick to grammatical posts and linear, rational argument, please. Otherwise even Europeans who think you're the devil wont be able to take you seriously.
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 05:34.
Strange freedom, looks more like a hysteria to me :)
You know pal, here in Europe you simply cannot force me or anyone else to respect Islam. It's up to each individual to decide what he does in that case and every other. And frankly, I don't think the behavior of Muslims in this cartoons issue is making it more likely that non-Muslims see a reason to respect Islam.
Respect is not something you can take for granted pal, it must be earned. And you guys are kind of not doing too good of a job I think.
Und ja, ich bin der Denker. Danke.
Islamic newpapers regularly
Submitted by Joe (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 06:02.
Islamic newpapers regularly print obnoxious lies about other religions. For example, Saudi daily Al-Riyadh published a story: "Jews Use Teenagers' Blood for 'Purim' Pastries". Thankfully, in that case the editor apologized but it remains true that hate filled publications are very common. Apparently, the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is very popular in the Islamic world. Sadly, it seems Islamic countries and many islamic people are hypocritical when it comes to respecting other religions. I once read that the punishment for renouncing Islam in Saudi Arabia is death. Does anyone know if this is true? If that is the teaching of Muhammad then he is was one sorry bastard.
Islamic Hatred of Freedom
Submitted by Joe (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 06:23.
The UK Guardian newspaper had this about Saudi Arabia: "If you are found guilty of any of the following in the kingdom - murder, rape, armed robbery, drug smuggling, apostasy (turning your back on Islam) or witchcraft - the price is beheading." Apparently renouncing Islam warrants being murdered and this is the teaching of Muhammad and if so I stand by my assertion that he is one sorry bastard.
apostates and idols
Submitted by grumpy (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 20:08.
well, our friend nermin was denying that the other day. Perhaps lies are allowed when discussing with infidels as someone argued on this site.
But more to the point: someone said the prophet refused to have his portrait taken because he didn't want to start a cult, didn't want to become an idol. Two toughts:
1. no danger of that with these cartoons, so what is all the fuss about
2. the way some of his followers talk about him in their interventions smacks of idolising to me. They should be more careful
You said:"I have Christian
Submitted by Proud Infidel (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:37.
"I have Christian friends and I refuse to humiliate them?
But the question is ; Do you do the same?"
Answer: What grade are you in? As an adult, I can honestly say that the thought of humiliating anyone does not usually enter my mind. It is not even the basis of a decent argument. Quite frankly, a stupid thing to say on your part.
Voltaire & Rousseau
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:32.
I have no interest to offend Muslims myself but I nevertheless have the democratic right to do so if I choose to. That's what the freedom of speech is all about my friend. Suggested reading for you is Voltaire and Rousseau if you want to understand the western idea of freedom of speech.
"I do not agree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it." This quotation is a famous summary of Voltaire's attitude towards freedom of speech in case you don't know.
And yes, the Danish flag has been burned before by Muslims, when Denmark decided to support the invasion of Iraq.
And by the way
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 04:40.
And by the way, Islam also prohibits the depiction of Jesus Christ, Moses and Abraham. Why haven't you people said anything about that??
Submitted by Eddy (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 03:31.
Jamal, you are wrong.
Everyone has the right to offend muslims or christians or jews. And the muslims and christians and jews have the right to protest against such offenses.
But that is not the point here. Is anyone saying that the muslims should not be offended? Or that they should not write letters to the Danish newspaper explaining their point of view? Or that they should not be entitled to no longer buy the Danish newspaper in protest? No, nobody is saying that. Such responses would be normal and acceptable responses in a free democratic society where there is freedom of speech.
What you don't seem to be able to understand is that what really annoys the heck out of us is the MANNER in which the muslim community has been responding to this affair: with death threats, threats of violence, hate mongering by spreading vicious lies, and demanding the impossible (like demanding that the Danish government intervenes or punishes the authors of the cartoons... Hello? Anybody home???).
This must be added to the fact that muslims are GUESTS in Denmark. A NEW religion that is shown a LOT of tolerance (probably more than other sects would receive if they behaved the same way). A GUEST should not be so rude towards his host, EVEN IF the guest believes his host has offended him. A bit more humbleness would be appropriate.
(But then again, humbleness is the LAST thing a muslim ever learns, isn't it? After all, they are superios to all the Dhimmis...)
And that must in turn be added to the fact that muslims from OUTSIDE Denmark are jumping on the bandwagon, whereby it is clear that it is none of their business how Denmark manages its own democracy and internal affairs. At least, nobody is dying or nobody’s hands are being chopped off or raped at the order of the courts...(I'm sure you get the picture).
Finally, how DARE you speak about "islamophobic", when the entire Western world has shown a tolerance and acceptance towards muslims that borders on the incomprehensible especially in light of the fact that islam has been connected explicitly to so much terrorism and fear and hate. And, Jamal, that is a FACT. Whether such violence and fear and hate are a part of islam or a misinterpretation of islam are opinions which I do not want to delve into now, but that islam has been linked to terrorism, hate and fear are FACTS. And I’m not talking about the Middle Ages here, I’m talking about today, in most of the World. Not even muslims can deny that, or can they?
It is saddening to see a Dhimmi like Raymond Lakah
Submitted by DewiSudarsono on Thu, 2006-02-02 02:50.
It is very unfortunate that has sacked Jacques Lefranc, we need to start a campaign in support of a brave man like Jacques Lefranc.
Good news is that the the Dutch Politician and Member Of Parliament Geert Widers has place the cartoons on his website as a statement of solidarity with Denmark.
Although the Danish
Submitted by jamal (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 02:41.
Although the Danish newspaper apologised, many European newspapers have reprinted the slanderous cartoons. Some have called it solidarity, I call it collective slander. Apparently much of Europe does not realise the difference between ‘freedom of speech’ and unacceptable slander. At least Great Britain did not jump on the bandwagon like the rest of these losers did.
While supposed ‘freedom of speech’ advocates chant on one side and Muslims argue for an apology on the other, I wonder whether this row would be so popular if it had not centered on Islam. The media has already proven to be islamophobic, and reading comments on this issue at this blog and others will evidence that many backing the newspapers are also against Islam.
As stated by Omar and Aquacool, the inconsistency is that when Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denied the Holocaust there was an uproar and calls for him to retract his “anti-semitic” words. When a photograph that showed American coffins on their way back from Iraq was deemed offensive there was an uproar and the photographer lost her job. In each case action was taken against the so-called transgressor and the world did not come together to reprieve them, chanting freedom of speech and expression as a justification.
The first consistency so far in this issue is that Managing Editor of France Soir, the paper which has reprinted the cartoons, has been sacked. No doubt many will argue this is wrong, when the reality is that this should have been the standard from the outset.
Submitted by Colinp on Sat, 2006-02-04 20:35.
Submitted by Colinp on Sat, 2006-02-04 20:34.
Instead of worrying about
Submitted by Joe (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 06:32.
Instead of worrying about catoons I wish moslems would support freedom. Is it right to put someone to death for renouncing Islam. How many islamic countries have that as their law?
What comes next?
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 03:37.
And why should I, who don't adhere to Islam, have to sit and stand according to what is prohibited or allowed according to this religion? What next? Should I stop eating pork to avoid offending Muslims? Should European women start wearing a hijab to please Muslims? Of course not!
Freedom of speech
Submitted by Der Denker (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 03:27.
"Apparently much of Europe does not realise the difference between ‘freedom of speech’ and unacceptable slander."
The very idea of freedom of speech is that people are free to say what they want but must be ready to take responsibility for it if necessary in court of law. That is the core democratic idea. Freedom of speech is simply not just for some popular opinions or for that matter political correct opinions. Anyone who thinks so obviously hasn't got the clue what freedom of speech is all about.
It must be painful to be
Submitted by Jason (not verified) on Thu, 2006-02-02 03:24.
It must be painful to be that wrong Jamal. First off, slander is a verbal offense...I believe the term you are looking for is libel. However, libel is a direct and knowingly false accusation made against an individual or organization...it does not constitute depicting "the prophet" as a cartoon character.
Here in the West we place a great emphasis on free speech. I'm not sure where you are from, but I do know that if I were to carry a bible or iconic picture of Jesus to Saudi Arabia, it would confiscated and destroyed before I ever left the airport.